what powder to use in short barrel?
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Re: what powder to use in short barrel?
Sorry Tony didn't know the background to you're problem. Holy Cr@p I bet you were miffed will the RFD not replace it for you? Now that I really look at you'r initial question I see my answer didn't that much so I spent a little while looking around the web. Now, I can reload but internal balistics makes my head hurt but I found a couple of items that might help you, however you will have probably been doing a lot of seaching yourself so they may be of no use to you.
http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/sho ... rel-Length
http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html
If the above don't shed much light on the subject get the gun re-barrelled, did wonders replacing the factory tube on my 7mm - 08, If scratching you're head is making it sore have a break & watch this the differences between what men & women expect from a night out, even my wife chuckled when she saw it.
ATB Mark
http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/sho ... rel-Length
http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html
If the above don't shed much light on the subject get the gun re-barrelled, did wonders replacing the factory tube on my 7mm - 08, If scratching you're head is making it sore have a break & watch this the differences between what men & women expect from a night out, even my wife chuckled when she saw it.
ATB Mark
Last edited by Mark C on Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: what powder to use in short barrel?
that vid is fuuny, and proberly true, i think i will buy quickload and see if i can get the best out of the barrel at the min a rebarrel is £650 and the gunsmith i spoke to was very honest and said i still would only gain 150 fps, so would be better tinkering with loads and data and find an accurate load, but he said if i really wanted to throw that money to gain 150fps he would gladly do it for me, so i think i will buy quickload and just reload and find a good load untill barrel is no good and then rebarrel.....
thanks
tony
thanks
tony
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Re: what powder to use in short barrel?
Tony, I hope you'll excuse me making assumptions on your behalf but I'm left wondering if you might have judged your max charge weight a bit too conservatively.
I know a lot of folks loading for .204 and, in my experience, it is rare to find someone who has fixed their "tested" max charge weight at 0.6 grains below a published max, especially when using a powder that leaves so much of the case unfilled (i.e., not a compressed charge). Also, at 33.7 grains case capacity, you do not appear to be working with a "tight" chamber, so I would expect Pmax to run a bit less than the powder manufacturer's predictions. So it's those three factors taken together that make me curious.
Anyway, I've said all that to get to this. A while back I posted this regarding the black art of reading pressure signs. I'm not telling you I know for fact you could load hotter at no consequence. I'm just saying that, given what I know, I'm inclined to believe that is a possibility.
QuickLoad, BTW, is a consumer-level internal and external ballistic software that runs on a Windoze PC. It sells for about $150 in the US but it was written by a German so I would presume there are different sources for Europeans (if you'll excuse me calling you European ). One of its best features is the ability to "audition" different bullet components to predict their affect on performance.
I know a lot of folks loading for .204 and, in my experience, it is rare to find someone who has fixed their "tested" max charge weight at 0.6 grains below a published max, especially when using a powder that leaves so much of the case unfilled (i.e., not a compressed charge). Also, at 33.7 grains case capacity, you do not appear to be working with a "tight" chamber, so I would expect Pmax to run a bit less than the powder manufacturer's predictions. So it's those three factors taken together that make me curious.
Anyway, I've said all that to get to this. A while back I posted this regarding the black art of reading pressure signs. I'm not telling you I know for fact you could load hotter at no consequence. I'm just saying that, given what I know, I'm inclined to believe that is a possibility.
QuickLoad, BTW, is a consumer-level internal and external ballistic software that runs on a Windoze PC. It sells for about $150 in the US but it was written by a German so I would presume there are different sources for Europeans (if you'll excuse me calling you European ). One of its best features is the ability to "audition" different bullet components to predict their affect on performance.
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Re: what powder to use in short barrel?
since we last spoke fred i have purchased quickload and it should be on the door mat by this tuesday.
i know all to well what pressure signs look like as i ran through them all untill i put a hole in the primer..
as for case capacity i weighed some more and i had given you one that had stretched and not been trimmed it is more like 32 to33
and european please noo.. just a brit ....
the picture of the second case is about 26.2 in my loads the next is about 26.5 and the flat one is 26.8 thats how the looked thats why i stayed on 26.2 as if the weather gets hot that day or i trickle .2 over i am still save, my loads are conservative at the min, my chamber could well be loose but it a fatory rifle, if i rebarrel then the chamber will be tight and a longer barrel but the gun smith said i would only gain150-200 fps more by going to a 22" barrelb alot of money for £650....
tony
i know all to well what pressure signs look like as i ran through them all untill i put a hole in the primer..
as for case capacity i weighed some more and i had given you one that had stretched and not been trimmed it is more like 32 to33
and european please noo.. just a brit ....
the picture of the second case is about 26.2 in my loads the next is about 26.5 and the flat one is 26.8 thats how the looked thats why i stayed on 26.2 as if the weather gets hot that day or i trickle .2 over i am still save, my loads are conservative at the min, my chamber could well be loose but it a fatory rifle, if i rebarrel then the chamber will be tight and a longer barrel but the gun smith said i would only gain150-200 fps more by going to a 22" barrelb alot of money for £650....
tony
Re: what powder to use in short barrel?
bigt73
Excuse me if I missed it but what primer are you using?
Excuse me if I missed it but what primer are you using?
Savage VLP + NF 12x42 + 35 Bergers = .
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Re: what powder to use in short barrel?
your right i never said , rem7,1/2 primers
Re: what powder to use in short barrel?
bigt73 wrote:your right i never said , rem7,1/2 primers
Perhaps you should try another brand before you spend good money on smithing your pin.
Rem 7.5 has been known for years as one of the "go to" primers for hot cartridges like the 204.
Perhaps,just perhaps during the "big ammo shortage" quality control slipped a bit at remington. (amongst other manufacturers also.)
I have some very old (20+ yrs) Rem 7.5's that crater quite a bit. Popped a few too.
I've had plenty of lots of Rem 7.5's that worked perfectly.
I have a brick of post shortage era that crater more than my personal go to primer Fed 205 match.
Maybe you have a bad batch.
FWIW I bought a brick of Mag Tech 7.5's during the shortage. Total Garbage. Lots of blown primers and craters with no regard to actual load pressure.
If your using 10X make sure your not developing a carbon ring. Many fans of 10X here but I'm not one.
In my expierience its very accurate but extremely dirty. I can get about forty rds down the tube before my barrels carbon foul out and accuracy go's haywire. That doesn't cut it for my needs.
With prolonged use and inadequate cleaning regimine you could easily be developing a carbon ring much like the 22-250 is known for.
I could share some horror stories but I'm not looking for a fight
Its quite possible your problem is mechanical. These are just a few ideas to chew on before you start spending money on mechanics
Savage VLP + NF 12x42 + 35 Bergers = .
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Re: what powder to use in short barrel?
jo191145 wrote:bigt73 wrote:your right i never said , rem7,1/2 primers
Perhaps you should try another brand before you spend good money on smithing your pin.
Rem 7.5 has been known for years as one of the "go to" primers for hot cartridges like the 204.
Perhaps,just perhaps during the "big ammo shortage" quality control slipped a bit at remington. (amongst other manufacturers also.)
I have some very old (20+ yrs) Rem 7.5's that crater quite a bit. Popped a few too.
I've had plenty of lots of Rem 7.5's that worked perfectly.
I have a brick of post shortage era that crater more than my personal go to primer Fed 205 match.
Maybe you have a bad batch.
FWIW I bought a brick of Mag Tech 7.5's during the shortage. Total Garbage. Lots of blown primers and craters with no regard to actual load pressure.
thanks for that jo, but i am not having the pin done its fine the max pressure that h335 shows is 26.8 , my 26.2 load is safe i can push it too 26.5 and have cratoring or even flaten the primer, i dont want either, if for some reason i load .2 grain over aby accident and my go to load is say 26.5 then a hot day and .2 over 26.5= 26.7 i could loose something, just for speed its not worth it.
now what i will do is try re10x and see what thats like and what fps i get, but i will never have a hot go to load, i would rather spend £650 on a new longer custom barrel and a better chamber and, stay safe £650 is a small price to pay compared to losing an eye or a few fingers.
the load is accurate its just because the barrel is short that the fps is not want i wanted but, i will not push things too silly psi just too say i get ....fps the pin is fine and the primers are fine, the barrel is too short and so the powder is the wrong one for this short barrel.
i have ordered quickload and hopefully it will arrive today and i can see which powders will do for my set up.
the h335 is what i had left over from my .222, when i brought my .204 i also brought the re10x as it was recommend.
thanks again jo.
tony
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Re: what powder to use in short barrel?
i have just got my quickload, i understand why your thinking i could load hotter than i am as it shown low psi, but that could just be my chamber as its only factory it could be sloppy?
but i put all my data in and as fro the fps it was only 40fps out from what i chronoed so at least if i leave the data in and just change powders i should get some good data
but i put all my data in and as fro the fps it was only 40fps out from what i chronoed so at least if i leave the data in and just change powders i should get some good data
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Re: what powder to use in short barrel?
Provided your chrono is giving you good numbers, I tend to agree.
I have an old, old copy of QL, v3.0 upgraded twice to v3.4. Because of that, most of these pressure errors I write off to its old age. Presuming you have v3.6, I wouldn't expect Pmax to be that far off.
When my QL's pressure predictions are off, usually they are so far off I know immediately not to trust them. Velocities, OTOH, usually are much more accurate. So, for safety's sake, my habit is to try and correlate my MVs with the manufacturer's pressures. If the powder company says Velocity X is at 58K psi, and I'm getting Velocity X, I tend to believe their predicted pressure.
One way to test the relative accuracy of QL's pressure prediction is this:
1) adjust the powder's temperature to match the conditions when you were shooting, then
2) adjust the burning rate factor (Ba) until the predicted MV matches your range data EXACTLY.
This effectively calibrates your Ba to the variances in powder lots, humidity in the powder, etc. It's not ordinarily that straightforward but, if you're only 40 fps off, that should do it.
Now run up the charge weight until Pmax reaches the SAAMI max, or ~105% case fill, whichever comes first. Then check your MV. If QL predicts you'd be getting something outrageous -- like 4000 fps -- from an 18" barrel, you know your Pmax is off-kilter.
I have an old, old copy of QL, v3.0 upgraded twice to v3.4. Because of that, most of these pressure errors I write off to its old age. Presuming you have v3.6, I wouldn't expect Pmax to be that far off.
When my QL's pressure predictions are off, usually they are so far off I know immediately not to trust them. Velocities, OTOH, usually are much more accurate. So, for safety's sake, my habit is to try and correlate my MVs with the manufacturer's pressures. If the powder company says Velocity X is at 58K psi, and I'm getting Velocity X, I tend to believe their predicted pressure.
One way to test the relative accuracy of QL's pressure prediction is this:
1) adjust the powder's temperature to match the conditions when you were shooting, then
2) adjust the burning rate factor (Ba) until the predicted MV matches your range data EXACTLY.
This effectively calibrates your Ba to the variances in powder lots, humidity in the powder, etc. It's not ordinarily that straightforward but, if you're only 40 fps off, that should do it.
Now run up the charge weight until Pmax reaches the SAAMI max, or ~105% case fill, whichever comes first. Then check your MV. If QL predicts you'd be getting something outrageous -- like 4000 fps -- from an 18" barrel, you know your Pmax is off-kilter.
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Re: what powder to use in short barrel?
Getting QL to match a single load's range data is not a problem. All you need do is change the burning rate factor until your charge weight matches the MV that QL predicts and Bob's your uncle! The sticky bit comes when you try to use the predictions from a single set of QL variables to match the range data you developed from a variety of different charge weights. Then you have to resort to tweaking other parameters besides just the Ba.
These are notes left in another gun forum by a gent named Chris Long. Chris is the creator of the "Optimum Barrel Time" (OBT) method of load development and, IMHO, probably knows the ins and outs of QL as well anybody apart its creator, Hartmut Broemel.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I have been improving this process, and hope to be able to update that paper eventually. Currently, my three main "tweaks" in QL are:
1.) Burn rate - no more than 5% higher or lower. More than that and I go to #2
2.) Weighting factor - no more than 10% change from QL default, else go to #3
3.) Bullet weight - this is a very good way to compensate for bore friction and other physical things that QL can't model. An increase in friction effectively reduces the accelerating force on the bullet, slowing it down. Increasing the bullet mass does the same thing in QL (F=MA). If you have to tweak this by more than a few single digit percentages, then there is something very weird going on. If things get too weird, reset it all to QL defaults, and start over with just the bullet weight and see what you get. I had one Savage 6mm barrel on a friends rifle that was really rough, and required a 3 grain increase in bullet weight (from 105 grains) to get the velocities to match. It was the only tweak that would let the model even get close to the right predictions.
The process is trial-and-error, tweaking these parameters until you can match at least two velocity measurements. I usually fire at least three different charge weights, from low to high, trying to bracket the expected OBT velocity range(s), and record velocity for each trial. It is best to fire 5 shots at each weight, if you have the patience, as the velocity average will be much more accurate than a single shot value. Single shots are OK to get you in the ballpark, but to get a good QL model, you need more than 1 at each charge weight. Then, tweak QL until you get the best match to your data samples.
You will find that it is very difficult, if not impossible to get an exact match for some component combinations. I am convinced that there are non-linear effects in the actual powder burn process that QL's linear system models do not encompass. However, if you work at it, you should get the model to match well over the range of velocity that encompasses the OBT you are shooting for. If in doubt, try narrowing the test velocity range around the target OBT node, and try again. Once you get QL calibrated, you can adjust the charge weight in QL to hit an OBT on the nose. That will be your starting load for an OCW type test.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I do know one other fellow who uses QL and OBT to quite good effect who tweaks the Shot Start (Initiation) Pressure. This makes sense to me because QL has no adjustment for either primer brisance or bullet jump, both of which definitely affect chamber pressure. Then again, it could be that Chris already has determined both those factors are well-compensated for by his bullet weight tweak.
This is part science, part voodoo. Some people never get the knack of it and arrive at the conclusion that QuickLoad either is inaccurate or worthless. I probably started out lucky because the way I tweak is as much instinctual as intellectual, yet I'm able to skip merrily from one accuracy node to another and accuracy/group size remains virtually identical.
I'm keen to add a Pressure Trace to my collection of tools, too, because you can correlate the data from a chrono, QL and the Pressure Trace to pinpoint a barrel's accuracy nodes with astonishing precision. It's on my "must have/must do" list, right after an Aston Martin Vantage, a weekend in the Elvis Suite in the Las Vegas Hilton and a Barrett .50 cal.
These are notes left in another gun forum by a gent named Chris Long. Chris is the creator of the "Optimum Barrel Time" (OBT) method of load development and, IMHO, probably knows the ins and outs of QL as well anybody apart its creator, Hartmut Broemel.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I have been improving this process, and hope to be able to update that paper eventually. Currently, my three main "tweaks" in QL are:
1.) Burn rate - no more than 5% higher or lower. More than that and I go to #2
2.) Weighting factor - no more than 10% change from QL default, else go to #3
3.) Bullet weight - this is a very good way to compensate for bore friction and other physical things that QL can't model. An increase in friction effectively reduces the accelerating force on the bullet, slowing it down. Increasing the bullet mass does the same thing in QL (F=MA). If you have to tweak this by more than a few single digit percentages, then there is something very weird going on. If things get too weird, reset it all to QL defaults, and start over with just the bullet weight and see what you get. I had one Savage 6mm barrel on a friends rifle that was really rough, and required a 3 grain increase in bullet weight (from 105 grains) to get the velocities to match. It was the only tweak that would let the model even get close to the right predictions.
The process is trial-and-error, tweaking these parameters until you can match at least two velocity measurements. I usually fire at least three different charge weights, from low to high, trying to bracket the expected OBT velocity range(s), and record velocity for each trial. It is best to fire 5 shots at each weight, if you have the patience, as the velocity average will be much more accurate than a single shot value. Single shots are OK to get you in the ballpark, but to get a good QL model, you need more than 1 at each charge weight. Then, tweak QL until you get the best match to your data samples.
You will find that it is very difficult, if not impossible to get an exact match for some component combinations. I am convinced that there are non-linear effects in the actual powder burn process that QL's linear system models do not encompass. However, if you work at it, you should get the model to match well over the range of velocity that encompasses the OBT you are shooting for. If in doubt, try narrowing the test velocity range around the target OBT node, and try again. Once you get QL calibrated, you can adjust the charge weight in QL to hit an OBT on the nose. That will be your starting load for an OCW type test.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I do know one other fellow who uses QL and OBT to quite good effect who tweaks the Shot Start (Initiation) Pressure. This makes sense to me because QL has no adjustment for either primer brisance or bullet jump, both of which definitely affect chamber pressure. Then again, it could be that Chris already has determined both those factors are well-compensated for by his bullet weight tweak.
This is part science, part voodoo. Some people never get the knack of it and arrive at the conclusion that QuickLoad either is inaccurate or worthless. I probably started out lucky because the way I tweak is as much instinctual as intellectual, yet I'm able to skip merrily from one accuracy node to another and accuracy/group size remains virtually identical.
I'm keen to add a Pressure Trace to my collection of tools, too, because you can correlate the data from a chrono, QL and the Pressure Trace to pinpoint a barrel's accuracy nodes with astonishing precision. It's on my "must have/must do" list, right after an Aston Martin Vantage, a weekend in the Elvis Suite in the Las Vegas Hilton and a Barrett .50 cal.
Last edited by Fred_C_Dobbs on Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: what powder to use in short barrel?
i dont understand some of what your saying as i am still learning, but will try a few things
yes my copy is v3.6 arrived this morning
the only thing i am thinking is if my chamber only takes so much psi and , that shows on the primer then it does not matter which powder i use as more still fell in the same fps i am get at that same psi
i think a new barrel and chamber will sort this out, after christmas i should have enough money, and have decided to go 23" not 22
the only thing i nfound hard was when selected the boat tail detail and could not understand one of the measure ments, but when i put the ones in i did, only leaving one out the fps came out only a few fps out.
tony
yes my copy is v3.6 arrived this morning
the only thing i am thinking is if my chamber only takes so much psi and , that shows on the primer then it does not matter which powder i use as more still fell in the same fps i am get at that same psi
i think a new barrel and chamber will sort this out, after christmas i should have enough money, and have decided to go 23" not 22
the only thing i nfound hard was when selected the boat tail detail and could not understand one of the measure ments, but when i put the ones in i did, only leaving one out the fps came out only a few fps out.
tony
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Re: what powder to use in short barrel?
Your case capacity is only 0.3 grains more than my largest. That is little enough that tiny differences in the brass itself, not your chamber, could account for it. I wasn't implying you had a sloppy big chamber, just not a tight chamber. The manufacturers tend to use tight chambers in their proofing barrels. It tends to reduce product liability.
QL is a very complex application. There are eight separate adjustable parameters dealing just with the powder's combustion properties (but I only ever have heard it recommended that one of the eight, the burning rate factor, should be tweaked). In time, this all will make better sense.
Sorry to drop the OBT in on you with all the other. The principle reason I bought a chrono and QL was to be able to use OBT, but you really can't do OBT justice unless and until you have a pretty firm grasp of the QL tweaking bit.
OBT is a mathematical method for identifying your barrel's "accuracy nodes" based on QL's predicted "barrel time" (also known as "dwell") and your round's true MV.
Cheers!
QL is a very complex application. There are eight separate adjustable parameters dealing just with the powder's combustion properties (but I only ever have heard it recommended that one of the eight, the burning rate factor, should be tweaked). In time, this all will make better sense.
Sorry to drop the OBT in on you with all the other. The principle reason I bought a chrono and QL was to be able to use OBT, but you really can't do OBT justice unless and until you have a pretty firm grasp of the QL tweaking bit.
OBT is a mathematical method for identifying your barrel's "accuracy nodes" based on QL's predicted "barrel time" (also known as "dwell") and your round's true MV.
Cheers!
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Re: what powder to use in short barrel?
i now know i am out of my depth nowFred_C_Dobbs wrote:Your case capacity is only 0.3 grains more than my largest. That is little enough that tiny differences in the brass itself, not your chamber, could account for it. I wasn't implying you had a sloppy big chamber, just not a tight chamber. The manufacturers tend to use tight chambers in their proofing barrels. It tends to reduce product liability.
QL is a very complex application. There are eight separate adjustable parameters dealing just with the powder's combustion properties (but I only ever have heard it recommended that one of the eight, the burning rate factor, should be tweaked). In time, this all will make better sense.
Sorry to drop the OBT in on you with all the other. The principle reason I bought a chrono and QL was to be able to use OBT, but you really can't do OBT justice unless and until you have a pretty firm grasp of the QL tweaking bit.
OBT is a mathematical method for identifying your barrel's "accuracy nodes" based on QL's predicted "barrel time" (also known as "dwell") and your round's true MV.
Cheers!
i know you was not say my chamber is to big, i just ment its factory so its anyone guess
i re did the h2o case thing and its more like 32 grains, the brass is new not used and all different lengths, i can only trim wheni have shot them.
i will read and try to understand what you have put it, will just take time
thanks for all your help..
tony