The journey is nearing an end!!!!

[Lenard]

Fellows, I respect your remarks and truly believe what you are saying. The past 13 years, I was heavy in shotgunning and did not follow rifles. Me, and some of my acquaintances did see and experience some of the Remington Shotguns. They put choke tubes in them crooked because they indexed the reamer on the outside of the barrels. So I am well aware of the screw ups of Remington. The whole nation of shotgunners with any savvy, stayed away from their shotguns. They had visions of breaking into the target O/U market and lost big time.

I hope you are happy with what you have in Remington products, but I will never purchase another product from them. They are more trouble than what they are worth, IMO.

Lenard

[Jim White]

I know people rave about Savages & CZ's but at the end of the day (and IMO) accuracy is in the eye of the shooter. For me, as a target shooter I'm somewhat obsessed with accuracy. I want it as tigt as possible. In the past 3 years I've bought 2 Savage Model 93's 17-HMR's, 1 CZ-527 American (204) and 1 Remington Model 700 VLTHSS (204) & here is how that shot out of the box:

1. Model 93R17-BVSS (non accu trigger model). This rifle was purchased just as the Accu trigger was announced. Anywaym right out of the box, this thing shot 1.5" groups @ "50-yards" which is just dismal. It needed a new trigger (used Rifle Basix (nothing but trouble and in fact I ended up fixing it myself... ). I had it glass bedded and free-floated. Now with Fed TNT or CCI TNT it consistently shoots right at 1" @ 100 yards and roughly 2 to 2.5" at 200 yards .

2. Model 93 Model 93R17-BTVS. Right out of the box shoots just over 1 MOA @ 100 yards. Bedding may improve slightly but is not worth the cost to me. Naturally, this rifle was free-floated from the factory .

3. CZ-527 American (204). Shot roughly 1.5 MOA @ 100 yards Like 17 HMR #1, it needed bedding and free floating to bring out the potential. Now, it shoots groups tighter than Luu-luu's drawers.

4. Remington 700 VLTHSS (204). I just got this one back from pillare bedding, re-crown and free floating. But before hand it was terrible wit 1.5 MOA @ 100 yds.

The moral of the story is, if you want pin-point accuracy (thats what I'm after), most will require some TLC.

[Lenard]

Jim, I am in full agreement with you. After building stocks and bedding factory stuff, it is a rare bird that comes from the factory and will shoot half inch groups. In buying and selling lots of shotguns, I decided to never buy a gun that had over two things wrong with it, depending on how serious. It just was not worth it. My 700 had three major things.

Frankly, a gun that needs to be recrowned, like yours and mine, is a "shame on the manufacturer". When they produce a trigger that has a swing of about 8 oz's with a trigger gauge, that should be a no no. Until the last few years, I would not have a Savage in my safe, as I qualified them as junk. Thankfully, they have really improved them a great deal, at least from what I read.

In my over 35 years of bedding rifles and building stocks, I have found that I always have to check the bedding on any rifle and generally redo it. I have taken some of the old Rugers from 1 1/2" groups to under 1/2", just by bedding them properly. And by the way, of the early Rugers with the tang safety, I have only seen one in that generation that would shoot tiny groups without any work.

I like working on guns, but not with the surprises I got from the 204 model 700.

Thanks for the information about your experiences.

Lenard

[Bayou City Boy]

I know people rave about Savages & CZ's but at the end of the day (and IMO) accuracy is in the eye of the shooter. For me, as a target shooter I'm somewhat obsessed with accuracy. I want it as tigt as possible. In the past 3 years I've bought 2 Savage Model 93's 17-HMR's, 1 CZ-527 American (204) and 1 Remington Model 700 VLTHSS (204) & here is how that shot out of the box:

1. Model 93R17-BVSS (non accu trigger model). This rifle was purchased just as the Accu trigger was announced. Anywaym right out of the box, this thing shot 1.5" groups @ "50-yards" which is just dismal. It needed a new trigger (used Rifle Basix (nothing but trouble and in fact I ended up fixing it myself... ). I had it glass bedded and free-floated. Now with Fed TNT or CCI TNT it consistently shoots right at 1" @ 100 yards and roughly 2 to 2.5" at 200 yards .

2. Model 93 Model 93R17-BTVS. Right out of the box shoots just over 1 MOA @ 100 yards. Bedding may improve slightly but is not worth the cost to me. Naturally, this rifle was free-floated from the factory .

3. CZ-527 American (204). Shot roughly 1.5 MOA @ 100 yards Like 17 HMR #1, it needed bedding and free floating to bring out the potential. Now, it shoots groups tighter than Luu-luu's drawers.

4. Remington 700 VLTHSS (204). I just got this one back from pillare bedding, re-crown and free floating. But before hand it was terrible wit 1.5 MOA @ 100 yds.

The moral of the story is, if you want pin-point accuracy (thats what I'm after), most will require some TLC.

Excellent post Jim.....

You need to be aware however that "its not fashionable to be rational" on the Internet when whining gets you so much more attention. Especially if you whine about certain items that are "fashionable" to whine about simply to foster a group warm fuzzy feeling about where they did or did not spend their money.

The first time I posted on the internet several years ago about the Savage I mentioned above, I was almost drawn and quartered by folks who thought Savage was the only answer in the world....just because they owned one. How dare I say I too owned one that was pure junk in a lot of ways. It was like telling them that their kids were born naked and they didn't want to believe it for moral reasons, so they chose not to. Emotions ruling logic...

The bottom line is they are all factory rifles. If you want guaranteed accuracy today, a factory rifle from any of the manufacturers isn't a lead pipe cinch to be the answer. None of them are perfect, but in the same vane, none of them turn out nothing but junk either. For the most part, to get guaranteed accuracy you have to pay a little more for it, and a mass produced rifle is not a custom or semi-custom rifle by any stretch of the imagination.

Again, good post, but probably too rational for most folks for them to want to hear the message you delivered.

-BCB

[Rick in Oregon]

Again, good post, but probably too rational for most folks for them to want to hear the message you delivered.

-BCB

I've been following this thread, and that's about the way I feel about it also. The internet seems to be the home of the "Militant Coalition of Prejudiced Whiners". No matter what the article, there will be a steadfast group of admirers, and another of bashers for the same product. One mans treasure is another mans junk.

In light of the above, I'll admit that I've never brought home a factory rifle, new or used, that I shot "as-is". Virtually every one has seen time in my shop bedding, floating, trigger tweaking/replacing, lapping, recrowning, el al. It's just the way it is in the Real World. That is, IF you expect any degree of decent performance in regard to accuracy. Personally, I enjoy the work, always have.

[Jim White]

Well... the other caviet is, one has to be willing to change (I know, most people hate that in some degree or another) and experiment to get good groups. Mind you, if .600 to 1.000 MOA is good enough, then thats OK too but for me, it isn't.

That said, I just wish my CZ-527 would should knot holes with Hornady 40 gr VMAX bullets. But, it won't. So I have to buy the pricer Sierra 39 SBK until, and if possible, something else comes along. I'm figuring if it won't shoot with H4895, RE-15, 748, N135, N140, N540, Varget or 4064 (what I have on stock), I'm figuring it won't shoot with RE-10x, H335 or Benchmark either.

I'm also hoping, that my Remington 700 will sucessfully shoot the same loads I have for my CZ. But if not, I'll figure something out.

Jim

[Bayou City Boy]

Like Rick mentioned, "tuning" a factory rifle is just part of buying one. I always take a new rifle out of the stock and check everything out and clean off any excess grease, etc., maybe adjust the trigger if it needs it, check the muzzle crown for burrs, etc. (a very common cause of poor accuracy in factory rifles that is easily fixed in about 5 minutes) and check to make sure the magazine follower moves smoothly in the mag box (about a 10 minute fix if you need to do some cleaning up or some fine buffing on the follower to get it to move smoothly). On the three rifles I mentioned above, the only thing I did in this area beyond looking was smoothing up the magazine follower on the 221 FB. I then clean the barrel thoroughly and treat it with Lock-Eze for its first shooting session. I oil anything that needs it such as the trigger, cocking cam, etc., and I grease the bolt lugs.

Then I put the rifle back into the stock and snug everything up as it should be. Far too many factory rifles come with the action screwed so tight to the stock that its amazing how tight they are. And then folks gripe because a rifle won't shoot well. If the rifle then shoots to my satisfaction (based on planned use - I don't expect a light weight walking around rifle to shot :in the two's if I do my part" ), I'm done. A factory PD rifle I expect better than 1" accuracy from the box and I will work to get much better than that, and I generally will without much effort.

If a rifle won't shoot when I try it, then I may end up bedding the rifle and doing some load tweaking and additional searching. But Like Rick said, that too is part of owning a new rifle, even if it is just a factory rifle... With a custom rifle I expect all the things I mentioned to be operating at max efficiency when I receive it, so all I have to do is shoot the gun.

I own quite a few rifles and there is not a one that will not keep 5 shots within an inch at 100 yards. Seldom do I find even a factory rifle that can't be easily tuned to do that unless there is just a poor barrel or some other purely mechanical deficiency.... And for many of them, much less than an inch is a realistic expectation when I shoot them.

Again....don't expect a factory rifle to come our of the box and perform like a custom rifle. Some may, but if that's your common expectation, plan to be disappointed occasionally.

JMO - BCB

[700remguy]

Been reading these threads for some time now,and I see some valid points made but also believe too much is made of the quality of manucfature of the different brands of guns.My buddies and I all have our favorite brands(I have a safe full of Rems),but we all agree that all need a little tweaking as needed out of the box.But the one thing that seperates us is our reloading techniques.Being a lifelong machinist I have seen little quirks in standard reloading equiptment and the way we reload affects the accuracy of our chosen brand.Just a few examples:when we trim our cases,do we notice the case wobbling as we crank the handle(face of case out or square),do we check the consistancy of our powder measures from charge to charge,especially with coarser grained powders,making sure our case necks are free from burrs,ect,well you get the idea.Outside of a custom job(Rick,SOPD,Im gonna get one )we need to do all the little things to wring out all the factory rifle has to offer,Matt

[Hawkeye Joe]

I'll bet a lot of the guns (Savage,Remington or what ever your favorite brand is) that won't shoot .5 MOA or better just haven't found the right load combination. I would LOVE to do some load development with pile of junk rifles that won't shoot. I'm sure some won't for obvious reasons,You know, the one's that should have NEVER passed a visual QC. "BUT" I'll bet some will be tack drivers as is! My Savage LRPV took me nearly 1000 rounds to find a load that works.I also had the same problems with my Les Baer AR. A simple primer change was the fix for the AR .
I say let the whiners whine without being critical. Being helpful is a better solution. If you ask me, whining can only benefit us "the customer" in the long run!

[Glen]

Maybe,, just maybe,, the gun just doesn't "fit" that person or that persons style of shooting. Perhaps the bulkier stocks on some of the Savages aren't conducive to one's style. On the other hand the skinny little fore ends on the 700's aren't to my liking. I hate the skinny little fore end on my Marlin 357 but I learned to work with it. I just simply replaced the stock on my 700 with a bigger stock. I've never owned a Winchester but I can see where some models would not be comfortable for me. So is it really "always" the gun??

The main thing I can't figure out tho is why some folks will spend countless hours getting one brand to shoot then just haplessly "go thru the motions" with another brand because it's not their favorite & label it a non-shooter.

[Lenard]

My question is, have we gotten to where we accept mediocre work on products we buy? I can certainly see a few things getting by the quality control, but their just knowing that the average guy does not care, is not a reason to do shoddy work on their products. I am fed up with the lack of quality, even by some of the other big names.

I have always expected I could make a rifle shoot better with tweaking, but when it becomes a full fledged project, maybe even requiring a new barrel, that is too much. If I were independently wealthy, I would go straight to custom rifles with excellent barrels.

Look at Beretta and their shotguns. I have read half a dozen excerpts from guys who found that their lower or upper barrel shot 6" low or high at 16 yards. Berettas reply, is that falls into our acceptable standards.

So who wants to tell me that factory guns are made well today?


Lenard

[Rick in Oregon]

Lenard: I also feel your pain, and hesitate to say that all this may be "a sign of the times". Sad if true. As an anaogy, look at domestic cars.....

[Jim White]

Berettas reply, is that falls into our acceptable standards. So who wants to tell me that factory guns are made well today?
Lenard

Lenard, If a gun manufacturer ever told me that I'd certainly choose something else. Replacing a barrel on a brand new gun is defiently over the top. Speaking of guns of old, today I pulled out some of my hardware to take some pictures (to bad I can't post them directly here) one of which is a Remington 720 I won @ Camp Perry about 10 years ago. Anyway, that thing sure is a piece of art and the checkering, its real fine and sharp.

Rick, don't look to hard but foreign cars aren't that good either, IMO. But I believe you sumed it up well as a sign of the times.