Keyhole help!?!?

[E.Tn.]

Just got the gun out of the safe and inspected the crown with a loop and the crown is perfect - not a scratch or anything.


Rambler - The gun has been cleaned with powder and copper solvent after 1 - 5 shots as per the Savage recommended break-in. A thourough cleaning always after each trip to the range. Thanks for the input!

Greg

[WrzWaldo]

Two boxes of Hornadys didn't have a single keyhole

Which ammo 32 or 40 grains?

[E.Tn.]

Two boxes of Hornadys didn't have a single keyhole

Which ammo 32 or 40 grains?

1 Box each. I have a box of 40's and a box of Winchester 32's I"ll try next .

[Rambler]

E.Tn I don't know if that is the answer in your gun , But I have a 12 fv. savage and if it is cleaned good it don't keyhole--but if it isn't it does the 32 sierra's, But if its cleaned right it shoots good. I was told it had to be the bullet--then it was the crown, then it was just rough inside the bore.. I don't know but if its cleaned good it shoots good.. I also have a pac-nor barrel, it is easy to clean and Has Never keyholed... Go figure.... Just a thought...

[E.Tn.]

Thanks again Rambler, I'll keep that in mind. I hope I can trace the problem to my reloading and correct the problem there. It's a little early to give up as I've only shot the riflew about 85 times. I'd sure like to get some good weather on my days off to test a couple of things though. I'll keep you posted.



I read on Pac-nor's web site the following - "Never shoot a dry bore as this will greatly promote copper fouling." I have been cleaning the barrel and the first shot IS through a dry and clean bore. Could I be copper fouling the barrel with just a few shots and would this copper fouling cause keyholing?



Thanks

[contender hunter]

E.Tn , Just curious as to what pac-nor suggested to use in the barrel so as not to shoot a dry barrel ?? Any gun oil or a solvent ?? I do know my new contender bbl. didn't shoot very well untill I had at least 100 - 150 rounds thru it and then the fouling wasn't as hard to remove or maybe it just didn't foul as much to begin with after it was seasoned .

[jo191145]

Excessive copper deposits can aid in causing jacket failures. Jacket failures are usually caused by too thin jackets transferring heat too quickly to the lead core causing it to melt as it travels down the barrel. The result is a ruptured or leaking jacket. Will that result in a keyhole? Maybe, not always though.

You could try shooting at 25yds with some white typewriter paper as a target. If you see any gray comet tails on the paper emanating from the bullet holes you are melting cores and leaking lead. I suggest the BK's for that.

The fact that your flipping Bergers which is a tough bullet puzzles me. I'll look into that again and see if I can determine what makes the Berger tough. The jacket or the core?
Berger bullets use a soft lead core which actually has a higher melting point than other core alloys. So I assume its a soft but thicker J4 jacket that makes them tough. Doesn't hurt to dissect a few bullets though.

Seeing as your crown is not damaged I would go with Ramblers suggestion.
I would suggest you get something a little more effective than Hoppes Elite Copper remover. Can't hurt to try a different potion. Hoppes Elite has never been on the list of effective copper solvents. Never tried it myself.

Its possible you have some copper build up near the throat which effectively constricts your barrel in that area causing the bullet to actually become undersized.
The result could be a bullet allowing more hot gases than usual passing around it causing even more over heating.

A light coat of oil is definitely recommended. No puddles or ponds, Just a light coat.

[YoteSmoker]

Despite all that has been said, I find I get better accuracy with a lightly fouled dry barrel with all my guns. To the best of my knowledge, match shooters always shoot at least a fouling shot or two before they compete.

[KVW]

I'll bet that it's copper fouling. My brother in law just bought a new 204 and had the same problem. My friends and I decided it was either copper fouling or a bad crown so I took it home and loaded it up with butchs boreshine and let it soak for about 10 hrs. You wouldn't believe how much copper came out. I did this until there was no signs of copper and then I put some bore paste down it. Cleaned it up and it hasn't done it since. I think that you just have a rough bore and with a little work and some more breakin you will get it working. HTH.

[E.Tn.]

I appreciate all the feedback guys. I now have somewhere to start looking. I'm still waiting for some decent weather to test some of these ideas.

Greg

[Michael in WA]

E.Tn.

Have to agree with the other poster that copper fouling is the prime suspect with your rifle key holing bullets.
Long story short, shooting partner and friend had the same issue with his 204 Savage.
Piercing primers, bullets key holing, groups opening up.
What we found, rough spot in bore about 2 to 3 inches long about 6 inches in from the muzzle. Barrel had excessive copper fouling from rough spot out muzzle. 3 grooves and 2 lands appeared to be fouled more than the rest of the barrel.
What we did, cleaned the bore with wipe out for 2 days, the copper blue just poured out of the barrel. Ran 33 rounds with bullets treated with Wheeler Engineering Fire Lapping compounds through the barrel. The bore smoothed up and the issues went away. Don't know what this did to barrel life, but it has lasted 3 varmint shooting seasons and is still shooting well.
Hope this is of some help.

[E.Tn.]

E.Tn.

Have to agree with the other poster that copper fouling is the prime suspect with your rifle key holing bullets.
Long story short, shooting partner and friend had the same issue with his 204 Savage.
Piercing primers, bullets key holing, groups opening up.
What we found, rough spot in bore about 2 to 3 inches long about 6 inches in from the muzzle. Barrel had excessive copper fouling from rough spot out muzzle. 3 grooves and 2 lands appeared to be fouled more than the rest of the barrel.
What we did, cleaned the bore with wipe out for 2 days, the copper blue just poured out of the barrel. Ran 33 rounds with bullets treated with Wheeler Engineering Fire Lapping compounds through the barrel. The bore smoothed up and the issues went away. Don't know what this did to barrel life, but it has lasted 3 varmint shooting seasons and is still shooting well.
Hope this is of some help.

Thanks Michael,
I just got back fron the store with a few copper solvents and will give the bore a nother good scrubbing. Was your pal's rifle by any chance a Savage? I 've thought about the lapping compounds also - maybe flitz or something similar - that's about all I've seen locally. The more I've thought about the more I tend to agree with the barrel roughness theory but it still puzzles me that I've not seen factory loads keyhole. If anyone has any other tips on lapping or polishing a barrel please let me know.
One thing I'd like to update is my earlier comment about the case lengths. I orderded a dandy digital caliper from Midway and found that my case lengths didn't grow nearly as much as mu old dial caliper lead me to believe. Most twice fired cases fell between 1.837" to 1.844". I also ordered an even dandier Forester case trimmer and all cases are now 1.837" to 1.839". Sierra says case trim length should be 1.840" and Lee says 1.85" Most of the factory lengths I've measured is around 1.837".
Windy as heck here today (39mph) and the forcast is for rain and snow through Saturday. Still hoping to get to the range soon.

Greg

[Michael in WA]

E.Tn....
Yes as stated earlier, the rifle was a Savage. My friend broke the rifle in and sighted it in with factory rounds, one box each of 32grns. and 40grns. The way we found the rough spot in the bore was I got to clean the rifle at the range when it started popping primers and bullets were key holing. I do not know how many rounds down the bore before issues started. I could feel the spot when wet patching, brushed the bore and dry patched. It never went away, my buddy said it had been there since rifle was new. The fire lapping did the trick, but we knew the bore was rough. I would not have done it with out knowing this. Also 33 rounds of treated bullets seemed excessive, but we went for broke on the barrel, either it would come around or it wouldn't.
The rifle today: I cut the barrel back to 22" / bedded the action, barrel floated / stiffened the for-arm and he now shoots molly coated bullets. The fliers went away.
Once again, this is our experienced and solutions we came up with in a rifle that exhibited the same issues as yours.......... Michael

[E.Tn.]

Michael,
"Savage 204".......I see (now) said the blind man! I've heard somewhere that barrel manufacturers (and I'm thinking Savage in particular) can leave machining marks in the barrels when their cutters or whatever they use get worn and I had wondered if this may be my problem. I did notice I'm having trouble keeping the patch on the jag when I'm scrubbing back and forth now and I never noticed this problem during the first fourty or so shots. Lately, I have a pretty hard time keeping the patch on the jag when I pull the rod. I hope we're on to something. I don't have a scope or anything - may have to see a 'smith. Thanks again man.


Greg

[TD-Max]

Doesn't someone use the 39BK in their factory ammo? That would be an elimination.

Maybe it was American Ammo? I know I tried some, and it was slow and loose, but it was a factory loaded 39 BK.

On edit: duh, it's the Federal ammo that uses it. I think maybe the American ammo did too, but I'd have to check my ammo drawer...

Edit edit: I'm no expert, but I'd say get yourself a good bore guide (if you don't have one and keep the patch working one direction would be my recommendation. I don't know how the patch would stay on working back and forth. I've seen it said that more bores are damaged by improper cleaning...