How to fine tune a load?

[love2shoot]

I have finally found a load that is shooting in the 3's consistantly. I'm looking to try to shrink the groups a little more. I'm already uniforming pockets, deburing flashole, checking concentricity, etc.. I'm wondering if turning the necks would help. I haven't tried seating at different lengths yet. How do I go about that (how many thousanths at a time). Would anything be gained by using a "better" brass like Norma?


Edit: To clarify that "3's" was for three 5 shot group at 100yds.

[acloco]

Factory or aftermarket barrel?

Cooper or similar rifle?

In the 3's is phenomenal for a factory barrelled rifle. 3's would be the minimum for a complete build from a competent gunsmith (and $$$$).

Weight sort your brass and bullets.

Better brass will shave a tenth, usually.

What is the runout on a loaded round?

Need a LOT more specific info about your rifle and reloading setup.

[love2shoot]

I'm shooting a factory savage lrpv with a t36. It does have a sav-2 trigger set to 8oz. I'm shooting off a cowan front rest with protektor bags. Using ww brass, neck sizing only with lee collet die, and using a redding body die when headspace needs bumped. I'm checking concentricity with sinclairs digital gauge and it shows most rounds having .001 or less runout.
I shoot in calm to slightly wind conditions without flags. Would flags help?

When I say 3's i'm talking upper 3"s. Is it possible and realistic to expect groups consistantly tighter than what I'm getting? I'm just trying to find the limits of myself and the rifle.

[rayfromtx]

Hey there Love2shoot-
Can you post pics of some groups. Let us see your last 5 at least. Don't pick and choose. What was the wind condition and level of mirage. Do the groups exhibit vertical or horizontal pattern? Are you shooting 3,5, or 10 shot groups?

You will want a comparator gauge from stoneypoint and a 204 case for it. We can walk you through finding the beginning of the lands in your rifle. Then you will have a starting point for working on seating depth.

There is also the issue of gun handling and proper rest setup. When the groups start to get small, any of these issues can have a big impact on the remaining improvement potential.

There is also the issue of expectations. In spite of all the claims of "it will shoot 2s all day long" , realize that if you have the ability to shoot five 5 shot groups and have them average .2", you can win in almost any benchrest competition that you enter against the best rifles in the world. The occasional group is a lot different than the consistent group and that is far from a five group aggregate.

Lastly and most important is this. If you want to know what is happening with your rifle, you must use and understand windflags and mirage. At 200 yards, a 10 mph crosswind will blow your bullet 3.5". Once you get windflags and start watching them you will see that there is almost no such thing as a calm condition. Even when the windflags indicate calm, many of the best shooters will wait and not shoot the calm as it can be very deceptive.

On the subject of mirage, last year I was shooting the last match in a competition with my 6ppc. I was shooting at 200 yards in a crosswind with heavy mirage that looked like flowing water. I was in 2nd place and after four shots I was looking at a flat .2". My windflags indicated that my condition was holding so I sent the last round. I looked in despair at a .965" group. What had happened? The man to my left had watched and said, "the mirage let off about 3/4 just before you took the shot, 5 seconds later it came back and you would have had your screamer and first place." I took third place instead in the two gun. I think I dropped to 11th in the yardage.

My point is that a shooter that goes out and shoots without flags and an understanding of mirage is limited in their ability to know what their gun is telling them. I have seen competitors change their load and seating depth when their rifle was shooting groups with no vertical and they were just missing the wind call. Their targets read like a weather report. They changed the load and their gun was then out of tune to boot.

You are at the level where further improvement is likely to take a little commitment. Just tweaking the powder or depth may get lost in the noise of other factors or it may just make the gun shoot worse.

[love2shoot]

Didn't mean to mislead you guys and should have been more specific. The load I'm using now is like I said new. I only have three 5 shot groups to go by. I shouldn't of posted numbers, I'm not trying to be one of the "it will shoot 2s all day long" guys. I have the utmost respect for those that can read the conditions, I'm not even close to that point. I'm just looking for pointers on how to get tighter groups or at least stay consistant.

rayfromtx, maybe you could give me some advice on my rest setup. I shoot with a very light hold and have trouble with the gun not recoiling (sp?) straight back. How do I fix that? I would like to be able to just slide the gun back to the stop and be on target without making major adjustments. What would you recommend for wind flags and how many for 100yds?

[rayfromtx]

I'm not sure how to help you with your rest setup over the internet. I would recommend you go to a match in your area and find someone there that is willing to help you. That is much easier than you might guess. There are several things to look for. When you get a proper setup, you should find that sliding the rifle back up to the stop puts you within 1/2 inch of back on target every time.

As to flags, I like Rick Grahams flags and use 3-4 at 100 and 5-6 at 200.

I'd still like to see your groups to assess the shape of them.

[love2shoot]

rayfromtx, Thanks for your input. The group on the lime green paper was the first group with that load. I was extremely happy with that so I loaded up the same thing and shot the group on the blue paper the following week. Notice at the bottom it says six shots the one to the right was first shot from a cold barrel the next five are to the left. http://mysite.verizon.net/clintjordan/id5.html

[YoteSmoker]

Nice shooting! Are you shooting for bench or hunting or both? I'd say your well within 1/3 MOA of prarie dog! If you really want to try to tweak a bit more I'd play with your seating depth in .005 increments in and out of where it kisses the lands as your starting point. Then, I might try different primers last...if I was gonna shoot competition, otherwise I'd load up a bunch and go hunt.

[jo191145]

love2shoot

Possibly the best thing you could do for your Cowan rest is buy a 3" bag. If it is not already a 3" bag.
Then go to Midway and look up "EJS Forend Stabilizer"
Pretty cheap fix. Turns your varmint forend into a 3" flat BR forend.
Does the LRPV come with a forend sling swivel mount? Seems unneeded on that gun. The EJS needs a hole to mount into. Not the swivel mount itself just a hole.

The EJS also comes with some cheesy plastic screws on the side for alignment. Fairly certain you wouldn't need to use those. It fits tight on my VLP stocks with a little grinding so it should fit tight on yours or require a touch of grinding to get it flush.
Some smooth tape on the butt would help too. If I'm not mistaken the LRPV stock has a slightly rough texture.
FWIW I sanded my EJS's with a random orbital sander to make them super smooth also.
Just a thought, check it out.
You could of course make your own out of aluminum, Plexiglas or something else if you prefer.

What do you think of the Cowan rest? Looks like a great rest for the money. I should hurry up and get one myself. Never know when they might not be available.

[love2shoot]

YoteSmoker, I would say 95% of my shooting will be on the bench. Would love to shoot some prarie dogs but we don't have them here. Maybe an occasional groundhog. If the weather improves I'll get out to try some different seating depths.


jo191145, funny that you mention the forend stabilizer. I just recieved one the other day http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/cat ... type=store . Was going to try it on a couple of sporter stocks, might have to try it on the lrpv. The Cowan rest is worth every penny and then some, a very high quality rest.

[hossfli]

I shoot a Savage Predator Model 10, accu trigger at a pound and a half. Was shooting 5 shot groups with factory ammo I could almost always cover with a quarter at 80 yrds. Tried all different kinds of factory ammo and bullet weight. Started reloading a few weeks ago and have been able to consistently shoot a 5 shot group that a nickel will cover at 80 yrds on a calm day. Doin this with a factory barrel, kind of heavy trigger, laying on the group shooting with a bipod. I eyeballed the seating depth on my loads from a factory Hornady load. Shooting Winchester brass, 21.5 gr of H4198, 40gr vmax-40gr nosler-39gr Sierra BK. I haven't fine tuned the brass by weight, seating depth, length, or deburred flash holes etc etc. I"m sure if I did pay a little more time to such a thing i'd get better groups. Rather happy with what i'm getting now.

As for wind.... Was out coyote hunting with my father this past Saturday, no luck. When done, we set up a target at about 200yrds just to see how our rifles shot (he hasn't shot his in a while, I was curious about mine). There was a nice cross wind, not sure how stiff...maybe 15 or so. He was shooting a 25-06 w 75gr bullets and I my 204 w nosler 40gr bullets. He had about 2 inches of drift and I about 4.