annealing questions

WHISTLEPIG · Post by **WHISTLEPIG** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:51 pm

I got a 650 degree temp stick today (tempilstik) and tried to anneal a couple cases. Have a few questions for Skipper or anyone else who uses this method.

1. When I rub the temp stick, which is very hard, on the case just below the shoulder it leaves a dusty like material on the case. Is this the way it is supposed to work?

2. Holding the tourch with the blue flame at the neck juncture and spinning in my drill chucked with a 3/8 deep socket it takes about 6 seconds for the dust from the temp stick to melt. I then remove the case and quench. Sound right?

3. The hardened temp stick residue seems to stick to the case. How do I handle that?

4. The case neck seems a little darker and there is a slight rose or maybe pink hue about 1/4" down the case wall from the shoulder.

Does all this sound right? I know I have asked a lot of questions about this in the past and I am thankful for all the help. Just scared I am going to ruin a bunch of cases that have had a lot of work done to them.

Rick in Oregon · Post by **Rick in Oregon** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:22 pm

Hi there WP: As you may remember, this is not the method I use (I use the time-proven water/heat or Kindler method), but it sounds right based on my shop experience using temp sticks in heat-treating and welding.

The only caveat I'd ask is how are you protecting the case base area from the heat? Do you feel the drill chuck/holding assembly is acting as a heat-sink? The one thing you DO NOT want to do is excessively heat the case head area and weaken the case, thereby changing the temper of the brass in the head area. I'm sure Skipper will jump in here and clarify his method, but just make sure the head area stays cool.

Did you ever get the book by Todd Kindler on the 17's or 20's? His Series II Annealing Tip is by far the most popular way to aneal in a shallow pan of water to protect the case heads (tip over to quench), and you don't have to handle each and every case when annealing. I've been using this method now for over 25 years, and have never lost a single case doing all my wildcats and re-annealing cases that have been shot many, many times to bring the temper back to factory fresh. No dust or residue to remove from the case either.....Just food for thought. (No clumsy gloves to wear either, no individual handling of every case during the annealing process.......)

WHISTLEPIG · Post by **WHISTLEPIG** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:10 pm

Rick, I called Todd Kindler after your origional post about the annealing tip and was a bit confussed as to what type of torch and what type of gas was used with it. I am still considering it. I believe he said the tip was $42.00 dollars. What type of gas and torch do you use?

A 3/8" deep socket with a 1/4" drive is used in this method (Skipper's) to act as a heat sink and to turn the case. A simular method (without the temp stick) is used and described by Rich DeSimone in an article on the 6mm site under article archives, then annealing. His method is at the bottom of a rather long article.
I am very conservative with anything that goes bang, so please excuse my repeated inquiries. I just want to make sure I have it right.

scootertrash · Post by **scootertrash** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:45 pm

I use Mapp's gas and tip. Very similiar to the little propane torches, but Mapp's gas burns hotter, and does the job quickly. Do not use a propane torch tip with Mapp's. It requires a different tip. The price that Todd gave you, suggests to me, he may be using Mapp's also.

Mike

WHISTLEPIG · Post by **WHISTLEPIG** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:07 pm

Scootertrash, What is your method? Do you use water like Rick and one of Kindler's tips?

scootertrash · Post by **scootertrash** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:22 pm

With the Mapp's gas, when the neck area starts to turn pinkish/red I drop the case into a bucket of ice water. I can hold the case bare handed, as this gas does the job much quicker than propane. I do mine in a darkened room so I can see the color change.

As Rick said, you don't want to go below the shoulder area. As for the torch tip, I bought it the same time I got the gas. No, it is not from Todd. A welding supply house should have it. I also believe some hobbiests that do glass working use Mapps.

It's really not as scientific as you think. Once you get your gas, try a few of the different methods, and see which you prefer. The lining up of cases in a pan of water takes me to long, then you have to be careful the torch doesn't blow them over. With the Mapps, I can grab them one at a time gloveless, and it takes me about twelve minutes or so to do 50.

OTOH, you may like the pan of water, or taking the time to chuck each case. For me, it's just to prevent splitting necks, nothing more, and so far it's working well.

Edited to add: For some reason, once fired brass seems to anneal much faster than new brass. With new brass, I was unable to use the above method gloveless, and it was a pain. The fired brass changes color in about four seconds.

Mike

Rick in Oregon · Post by **Rick in Oregon** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:50 pm

WP: The tip from Kindler was only about $15 when I got mine, prior to that I was using just a standard Benz-O-Matic torch tip with off the shelf propane. Kindler's tip screws right on the same Benz torch.

No flame on ScooterT, but I'd be careful with a hotter flame/gas. Mapp gas burns very hot; we used to use it for flame cutting through up to 6" mild steel plate using a pantograph (industrial use). Everything I've ever read says to use propane, and if it gets red, it's already too hot. I've checked about five references to make sure of this, including Ken Howell's book (considered THE authority on case forming/annealing, former editor of Rifle and Handloader Magazine, now retired in MT) and he agrees you don't want to get it too hot, and dull red would be on the verge of too hot. We're only heating it to just before "dull red", or right there, then tip over and quench in the 1/2" of standing room temperature water. I use an old 14" pie pan in the garage, the Series II Annealing Tip, and a 12 second mental count then quenching. As mentioned previously, me and my accuracy minded buddies have been using this method now for over 25 years, and no one I know has lost a case doing it this way. That includes forming and annealing wildcats such as the 17 Ackley Hornet that is known for splitting freshly formed cases if not annealed. Ditto for the 17 Mach IV. I also use it on my 243 Ackley, .338-06 Ackley, and forming .404 Jeffery into .330 Dakota.

Kindler's tip is circular, completely surrounds the case neck/shoulder with tiny flames, about 8 or 10 of them, so heats the case very uniformly. ScooterT is correct though, that this is not rocket science, and is quite easy to do. I do 50 cases at a wack, and it takes me 15 to 20 minutes for the lot. When finished, the cases will have the tell-tale colors of arsenal military brass (shades of blue/yellow) that has not been polished on purpose, to show the end user it has been properly annealed. If it's pink in color after annealing, it has been heated excessively.

scootertrash · Post by **scootertrash** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:18 pm

Rick,

No flame taken, in fact it's very good advice.

Mike

WHISTLEPIG · Post by **WHISTLEPIG** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:21 pm

Rick and Scootertrash, Thanks a million for the info. I believe I will call Todd Kindler again tomorrow. I have been wanting to get his books, so I might as well get a tip also.

Wolfman707 · Post by **Wolfman707** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:32 pm

i just stumbled onto this post. please excuse the really basic question. why do you heat the tip of the brass? i have never heard of this. thanks for the help.

Varmonter · Post by **Varmonter** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:49 pm

wolfman.
brass after several firings will get brittle. heating or annealing
the necks helps to bring the necks back to thier old pliable selves again.
It has something to do with realigning the atoms in the brass.

look here for annealing

skipper · Post by **skipper** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:07 pm

Sorry guys, I've been very busy at work and home lately. I didn't mean to be unresponsive. It looks like you guys have all the questions figured out already.

WHISTLEPIG

Just use the temp stick for the first sacrificial case. The residue is very hard to get off. I make a mark all the way around the case and heat until it melts. I count the seconds it takes to melt then use that to anneal the rest. Sometimes I heat until the mark melts and then wipe the temp stick across the brass just to be sure. I throw that case away. Different cases have different thicknesses, etc. so I usually check before I proceed. I want to make sure I am reaching the proper temperature which is hard to determine by sight. When my cases are annealed they are silver at the shoulder and the neck is a very bright gold. I aim my torch flame at the middle of the shoulder. I have had some brass that turned pinkish and kinda swirled with blue. Most of the time this happens with Remington brass. Usually the brass turns blue at the edges of the flame and the neck starts to turn very bright gold. When I remove the flame the silver color is very evident and there is blue only on the lower edge of the annealed section. If the brass glows red, it is too hot and probably ruined.

I normally anneal my new brass before I reload it. The reason for this is to improve neck tension consistency and to avoid the black spots. I sure hope someone here can tell me where these spots come from but I have noticed that some once fired brass spots when I anneal it. The spots seem to be ringed with a pinkish color. The spots disappear when I tumble the brass but return later on. The spots seem to attract dirt or soot or something that I haven't been able to determine what it is or exactly what causes it. If anyone has any information on these spots I sure would appreciate it.

I agree that annealing is not rocket science. It is very enjoyable and I think that if most people would be willing to try it they would agree. I have about 200 WW cases that I have been reloading since I bought my .204 last February. I have lost count of the number of times I have loaded them. I use extra care with them and check them for signs of case head separation every time I load them. I don't overwork the brass and I anneal them after about every 6 or 7 loadings.

Rick in Oregon

I do feel that the socket protects the case head adequately. I have never had a problem with case head expansion. I actually think you would have to get them close to 450 degrees or higher to hurt them. The things you wrote are spot on, bud. We just have two different methods of achieving the same results. Nice job.

Rick in Oregon · Post by **Rick in Oregon** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:48 pm

Skipper: I also agree across the board. This is the kind of exchange that makes this forum so valuable. It is not often we can find a venue to exchange ideas or methods in such an open environment, and not have "the other" sort of individual I've seen on other forums screwing up the whole equation.

By the way, I've got some cases formed from 222 Rem Mag to .223 Rem that I made back in 1979, and with annealing every so often, they are still going strong! That says alot about the process.

WHISTLEPIG · Post by **WHISTLEPIG** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:28 pm

Rick, Just got my annealing tip from Todd Kindler. Played around with some cast off cases and got good results with the 12 sec. count as you indicated. Nice light blue-green color. Thanks again for your help. Have put an order in for a new Sako 85 Varmint stainless fluted (75's out of production) in .204 hope to have it by Jan. 1 but you know how that goes. I have been told they are already running 22-250 and some have made it to U.S.

Rick in Oregon · Post by **Rick in Oregon** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:45 pm

WP: I can feel the lust from here! Very cool about your new M85V.. which configurtion did you go for? I remember when the M75V's were in production, the 22-250 was the first in-country too, but that was when the 204 was a brand new chambering, so maybe your M85 will not take a freakin' year and a half like my M75 did! That will be one sweet rifle when it lands.

Glad to hear your Adventures in Annealing went well. That tip is really the hot setup, and will save you a bunch of time and hassle; well worth the asking price. Better lay in a bunch of 204 cases.....you be 'da guy with many 204's now......