When to anneal??

[surfclod]

I am just in the process of prepping about 700 brass cases so I will be ready for load testing when my new Shilen barrel gets here.

Some of the brass has probably 5-6 firings, others only twice. I plan to anneal all of them at this time so I have a common starting point from which to keep records of for my brass. (My record keeping has been non-existent so far).

All my brass has been FL resized. My plans were to trim to length, anneal, neck turn and then sort according to weight. After trimming about 150 cases I began to wonder if the annealing step is best suited for right after the resizing, or does it really matter.

In a perfect setting the brass should retain its dimensions after the annealing but as a welder I know that metals do not always behave as we want them to, during and after heat treating.

Should I anneal now and then trim, neck turn, weigh the brass or does it make a difference?

[jo191145]

Thats actually a very good question. I have no definitive answer but heres my logic right or wrong.

I anneal as a first step. The main reason is annealing drastically changes the lubriscosity of the inside of the neck. The accumulated carbon in the neck is acting as a lubricant in the neck during the seating process. Your loads have been tweaked for this condition. Annealing changes that condition quite a bit. Much like cleaning a burnt on frying pan with water annealing cleans the inside of the necks. Wether you decide to quench the brass during annealing or not the end result is a rougher neck surface.

The one sizing operation with lube and xpander ball helps bring the brass back towards the condition you previously had. JMHO

[surfclod]

I see your point and it makes sense. Of course the whole annealing process is full on differing ideas, (I guess like all of reloading). Trying to find something definitive in reading about the different methods can seem like a dog chasing its tail.

Since all my brass has been full length re sized I cannot follow your steps this time but I will try and do it as my first step the next time I need to anneal.

To be certain that the brass does not change any dimensions from the annealing process I will anneal what I have now and then continue with trimming, neck turning, etc.

thanks

Chris

[OldTurtle]

I just finished prepping about 150+ .204 cases, most Winchester, and as I was trimming, I found about a half dozen that had split necks.

Had to have happened during the FL sizing as I inspect all of them before then go in the die, figured it was time to anneal them for the first time.

So I will be a little out of sequence from what you practice..
Should I re-lube them before seating the bullet? It seems like this would potentially contaminate the powder..even using powdered graphite...

[Rick in Oregon]

surf: This is indeed a very good question. And after 40 years of handloading, forming and shooting many wildcats, after consulting the "know it all" books by Dr. Ken Howell (former editor of Rifle Magazine) titled "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges", and the "Sinclair Book of Precison Shooting and Handloading", no clear sequence of events in regard to annealing is explained. Dr. Ken's excellent book has about ten pages dedicated to annealing, but does not get into the sequence as it relates to regular handloading with annealing included.

I'm a former steel/machinery fabricator/welder also with a mechanical engineering background, and am familiar with the characteristics of heating various metals. I can only tell you what has worked in regard to annealing for me in all those years......

I usually anneal my freshly formed wildcats as a last step in the case prep process after all sizing, neck turning, and trimming has been completed. I've never, ever lost a wildcat case using this method. The exception to this rule is when doing radical changes to a case, say more than two bullet diameters necking up or down, then I anneal the case first prior to getting started with all the various forming dies.


However, when annealing fired brass, it is imperative to first neck or F/L resize to remove the primer, then I anneal as the second step prior to further case work. If you have a universal decapper, this is the time to use it, remove the spent primer first (NEVER anneal with a spent primer in the case!), then either neck or F/L the case. This latter method is preferred, as you are not then re-working already work-hardened brass and risk the possibility of splitting a case neck prior to annealing.

So to recap, in regular handloading with new factory fresh cases, they have been annealed by the factory prior to being polished and bagged. If you want to anneal then, go ahead.

If you are dealing with brass that has been fired a few times, decap with a universal decapper, anneal, then size, trim, etc. Hope this helps.....

[IKE]

Rick,
What is the reason to never anneal with a spent primer in the case? It appears to me that if you did then you could just go ahead and neck or f/l size and not have to do the de-capping operation. I also have a background in welding and metal fabrication and there must be something that I am not seeing. It looks to me like if you anneal after you size you have the chance of your necks not holding the tolerances you want.

Thanks, IKE

[Rick in Oregon]

Ike: Another good question. First, I've never had significant dimensional changes to the neck after annealing, although prior experience in the shop with more common metals would dictate otherwise. All my necks on wildcats that have just been formed hold the bullet nice and tight with no ill effects whatever.

The "never have spent primers in the case" comments come from both experience and from the recommendations of Dr. Ken Howell. Here's the deal.....by always decapping first, you have a clear vent in the case to expell hot gasses and allow water to flow easily, and not having the primer act as a heat sink. The other reason is that sooner or later, no matter how "experienced" we think we are, a live primer will eventually show up, and if taken for granted that it is spent, a whole new arena of "experience" will be encountered, none of it good news for the operator.

Having no primer in the case also quenches it better when tipped over into the water, and allows the case to dry properly with no moisture in the pocket area of the case. The case dries faster with the air circulation, avoids any possibility of residual moisture in the case, and also the possibility of moisture contamination to your dies. It's just good insurance all around.

[glenn asher]

Ken Howell is still alive, barely, and posts very, very frequently on 24hourcampfire.com, he answers all manner of questions there, if asked nicely.
He's really big on word-play, too, so make sure you read everything carefully.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthread ... w/1#UNREAD

Here's an example of wordplay, the man is an artist of uncommon wit, also.

[surfclod]

I've never had significant dimensional changes to the neck after annealing

I finished annealing my trimmed cases and didn't notice any changes either so that is good to know.

I am curious about how much temp difference it would take to notice a difference in case length, someday this winter when we get a good Canadian cold snap that drops below -30 I will leave some cases outside and measure then put them in front of the heater and measuer again and see what happens.


The whole field of annealing is not well understood, I had done a lot of searchs on several websites and forums and found a lot of info and differing opinons. I just kinda picked what seemed most logical for me and went with it, I am happy with the results. I guess if someone has a system that works why change?

BTW I have all Hornady cases and never come across any tight primer pockets, I guess I lucked out on the batches I got. My gun shot best with Hornady factory 32 Gr, in fact I had a hard time duplicating the accuracy with my early handloads. Now I have better reloading equipment so I have higher expectations now.