Remington responds to Primer Cratering in Factory Ammo

[Cadeuses]

The follwing was the answer I got direct from Remington regarding the Primer cratering I found inthe factory ammoI put through my new rifle. It would appear that it is intentional, being manufactured and designed to do so?

Here is the original email response from them with my question below it:
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Subject
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Primer cratering using factory ammo


Discussion Thread
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Response (Marcus) - 05/23/2008 10:59 AM
Dave,

Thank you for your email.

The firing pin holes on our small caliber rifles such as .204 Ruger are beveled and exhibit the cratering in question, regardless of pressure. The firing pin holes are beveled in such a way that the primer cup flows forming the crater in a controlled manner that actually thickens the primer cup in the area of the firing pin strike to reduce the chances of a primer being pierced.

Customer (Dave Waltner) - 05/21/2008 08:27 PM
Hello. I purchased a new Model Seven Predator in .204 Ruger caliber on 14 May 2008. Following a sighting-in session, I noticed severe cratering of the primers on the three different factory ammo cartrige primers I was using. My question is have you had any other queries about this problem in this rifle model. I am very concerned about a potential safety flaw within the bolt: (firing pin much smaller in diameter than the bolt face hole, or an oversize headspace issue) and do not want to experience a blow back situation into my face causing injury ... or worse. I have included pictures which show the heads of the cases and the necks and shoulders. I do not see any flatening of the primers themselves, nor do the necks and shoulders appear to be affected. All rounds fired exhibited
the same primer cratering. It is also noted that the firing pin is not centered in the bolt as evidenced in the photos also. Please advise as to what measures will be taken to resolve this potential safety problem. Thanks.
Dave.


Question Reference #080521-000080
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Product Level 1: Firearms
Product Level 2: Centerfire Rifles
Date Created: 05/21/2008 08:27 PM
Last Updated: 05/23/2008 10:59 AM
Status: Waiting


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[---001:002956:15733---]

So... for all those out there that have had their primers crater as I have... it was all meant to be according to Remington.

Any comments?

[Captqc]

Well that sounds resaonable enough except your pictures show a great deal of variation which wouldn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling. If it were me, I'd consider taking it to a gunsmith and having it looked at. Just my Gary

[glenn asher]

That's bovine excrement, trying to dodge a service job, and typical, from what I've seen and heard about their recent customer service.

If it were me, I'd write them off, and contact Kevin Weaver or Greg Tannel, and have them bush the firing pin. It's worth the trouble, in the long run.

I like that note on the end, "Firearms safety depends on you". Well, yeah, since they've gotten so sloppy with their firing pins and such.........

[jo191145]

I really think Glenn nailed it

Crater flow equals stretched brass. At least my mind can not fathom it any other way.
Using their logic I might set my head space .25 ahead to create stronger,thicker web junctions.

Theres a whole bunch of Benchrest shooters in this world that would probably enjoy learning they are not limited to a few primers. Its customary to run the 6PPC at 70,000+ PSI. Cratering is good.
I'll bet they'd be most interested in this new theory.

If Remington really wanted thicker brass in the cup they might consider manufacturing their primers accordingly.
Not knocking their primers actually. They are among the thickest already. The 7.5 just won the primer accuracy test in my 6BR against all the others.

Your the guy with the bolt. Does it look beveled as Remy said or just an oversize hole?
Either way it seems your on your own. Remington must have hired some very imaginative service techs to curtail actually doing service work.
The web is full of stories detailing the fact that Remington no longer warranties its guns.

[Bayou City Boy]

Don't just jump on the band wagon and start beating the dead horse again....

It might be wise to first do a little follow-up with them as to getting a bit more explanation. Engineers do things that they don't always expect to have to tell the rest of us as to why they do things.

Its fashionable to beat Remington into dirt, especially when the price of one exceeds what one typically wants to pay for one. Some folks cast off Cadillacs as too ostentatious, but would drive one in a minute if they could...

And no, I'm not saying a Remington is a Cadillac. Their quality did take a plunge a few years back, but they're working pretty hard to overcome some of that. I know of two custom gun builders who say the current crop of 700 actions are as straight and true as any they have ever seen. Hopefully their barrels will get better, but any factory gun maker could use that improvement.

Its just a simple fact that Remington and Winchester for years - and long before the internet created financial wizards in every small town and village - were targets because of their place in the market. Winchester - the old company, anyway, is no more. I would hate to see the effect if Remington went the same way, but I doubt it will happen with its current financial backing that owns most of the current firearms market.

If it should, however, some of you naysayers will have to find a new target....and most likely will have to find a new market for some of the things that Remington provides that no one else will.

Again....Check out the information in the note a little closer...that way you won't be stepping in the bovine excrement, that some folks like to spread because its fashionable to be negative, when you don't need to .

And if you want to correct "the issue" - and not necessarily "the problem" - of cratered primers in your rifle, Greg Tannel has a very good solution. I've had it done myself....

As for the statement, "Crater flow equals stretched brass"..... Think about it a few minutes in a logical manner and not in an emotional manner, and I think you'll see where your thinking might be flawed. For the brass to stretch because of primer cratering, it too would have to be "cratered" and go somewhere it can't with the fit between bolt face and cartridge face...... Primer cratering is not caused by excessive head space. Excessive head space severely flattens primers when the primer and the cartridge face slams into the bolt face.

-BCB

[jo191145]

BCB

Concerning "Crater flow equals stretched brass"
I was referring to the brass of the primer cup, not the cartridge brass itself. Just in case you mistook my meaning.
I'll clarify myself now because I really don't understand your explanation. I never said I was the brightest light in the refrigerator.
The way I see it "logically" if you increase the surface area of the primer face it either needs to stretch "get thinner" or possibly draw "primer" brass from out of the primer seat.
"Emotionally" I would be quite pi$$ed to buy a new rifle that craters primers like that irregardless of who made it.
Might not tick me off to much with one of my Salvages cuz a new bolt head can be bought dirt cheap but they'd still get a call from me.

If this really is a legitimate strategy on Remingtons part it seems to me they removed one of the key signs of over pressure loads available to the hand loader to correct a problem that never existed anyway. I've never popped a primer unless I was really really asking for it.

[Bayou City Boy]

BCB

Concerning "Crater flow equals stretched brass"
I was referring to the brass of the primer cup, not the cartridge brass itself. Just in case you mistook my meaning.
I'll clarify myself now because I really don't understand your explanation. I never said I was the brightest light in the refrigerator.
The way I see it "logically" if you increase the surface area of the primer face it either needs to stretch "get thinner" or possibly draw "primer" brass from out of the primer seat.
"Emotionally" I would be quite pi$$ed to buy a new rifle that craters primers like that irregardless of who made it.
Might not tick me off to much with one of my Salvages cuz a new bolt head can be bought dirt cheap but they'd still get a call from me.

If this really is a legitimate strategy on Remingtons part it seems to me they removed one of the key signs of over pressure loads available to the hand loader to correct a problem that never existed anyway. I've never popped a primer unless I was really really asking for it.

Fine..... For starters, primer cups are not made of "brass" as the term is normally used. As a result, I did mis-interpret what you were saying in light of the fact that the topic at hand was being blamed on head space issues by posters. Cartridge brass head space issues do not show up as merely cratered primers which by the way are made of much harder copper nickel alloys, not brass. Brass primers would likely "stretch" and I would not want to be behind one when it was ignited.

Primer material flowing into a firing pin hole - cratering - has never been a real sign of pressure for most folks. Cratering can happen with extremely mild loads. If you'll notice in the pictures pertaining to this topic provided by the same poster in another thread, the primers are not flattened around the outer perimeter at all. That would indicate possible high pressure most likely caused by excessive head space and or high pressures that are literally stretching brass in a chamber.

In addition, most experienced reloader don't put a lot of faith in primer appearance as an indicator of real dangerous pressure levels anyway. If that were true, how could we use the same primers in two cartridges like the 30-06 and the 270 Win which have much different SAAMI operating maximum pressures. By using "primer logic" like you suggest, there is no way we could use the same primer in both cartridges without seeing all kinds of "pressure problems" in the 270 Winchester if we ever saw any hint of "pressure problems" in the 30-06 using the same primer. They operate under extremely different maximum pressures, yet can use the same primer.

That's why a lot of truly knowledgeable folks rely on chronograph data to tell them when high pressures are really being reached instead of primer appearance. When you no longer see incremental increases in velocity with incremental increases in powder charges, you have exceeded good safe pressure levels. Even when based on different tolerances in individual rifles, most primers may not even be "showing" a hint of pressure at that point and won't show signs until a primer literally falls out after the round is fired and pressure levels are extremely high in some rifles.

There are too many individual rifle differences including firing pin hole size, firing pin size and protrusion, and simple chamber tolerance differences to allow for predictable pressure determinations using primer appearance as a tool. In spite of what you might have read in your loading manuals. Most loading manuals are written for the majority of folks who don't have chronys and the pictures they see in those manuals could have been prevented with a chrony well before the extremes they are seeing in primer appearance happened.

Point being: Don't believe everything you read in manuals and on the internet about cartridge pressures. A lot of it sounds good and looks good in print, but it doesn't always pass the logic test....

And just for the record, if you were invited into my home and saw the rifles in my rifle safes, I bet you would be surprised - probably astonished - at what you see. They are far from being filled with Remingtons. I just get tired of the "band wagon folks" who want to spin theories because they had type writers in the past and now have keyboards and the Intenet. If I had listened to them all the time just to make both them and myself feel good inside, I would not have always had a few 17 Remington rifles in my safes for the past 35 years. (everyone knows all 17 caliber rifles foul excessively, don't we...?) And most of the 17 Remingtons you would see in my safes are not Remington made. Most are made on actions that most "Internet Wizzards" have only read of others talking about...

All I was originally saying was don't blindly believe every Tom, Dick, and Glenn who has a generally short-sighted and biased opinion for whatever reason on an issue. Pursue the issue with Remington. There might be some true logic involved that will overcome emotions in most rational folks. Not all.... but most....

Also, I own other makes of rifles which also crater primers in small calibers. Suppose they are all blindly copying Remington? I doubt it...

With that.....everyone have a nice and safe Memorial Day.

-BCB

edited for clarity....

[Hawkeye Joe]

I see nothing wrong with a good slamming of sloppy craftsmanship from a rifle manufacturer. What's the worst thing that could happen?? They fix the problem ?? I say we beat this dead horse till Remington's Engineers get their heads out of their buts. If they think there's a reason for such a oversize hole and chamfer, Prove it in the real world, NOT on paper. If I had a nickel for every "OVER ENGINEERED" print that hit my desk, I'd be a rich man.I would love to see the blueprint in question. If it looks ,smells,and steams like fresh bovine excrement, It is what it is ! Being a machinist for over 25 years I can tell you first hand, good machinist are a rare find. The days of "thinking" every minute of every day while on the clock are gone! Today's dummies just aren't capable of sending text messages and machining a consistent quality part !!!!!!! 4 out of 5 Savages I own have this same cratering problem. "BUT" it's not even close to the extreme cratering we see here.

[Glen]

Remington>> The Big Green weenee Buy em if you like but I would rather have a CZ. You know the ones. They are the ones that you don't have to screw with to kill stuff & they cost a lot less


BTW-- For those that think I'm bashing remington. Shut your darn mouth because I've dealt with the sorry SOB's already & will never give them another dime.

[Bayou City Boy]

LOL...!!! I figured the chest thumpers would get up enough machismo to provide some "facts" about how the world spins. Even though some of it is feeble and limited...

Remington>> The Big Green weenee Buy em if you like but I would rather have a CZ. You know the ones. They are the ones that you don't have to screw with to kill stuff & they cost a lot less

3 of the 4 CZ's I've bought in the past three years required some work to get them to shoot well. How do those of you who pick 'em off the shelf ready to consistently shoot BR groups do it....?

As for Savages....I read for several years how they were the bargain basement deal of the century. I have to agree. The one I bought I paid less money for, but I also got less rifle, too. After raising the stock value of several copper removing bore solvent companies trying to get it to shoot ( a 223 Rem of alll calibers), I took my losses from the owner of a good gun shop near where I live who told me upon selling it to me, " You won't be satisfied with it....". He was right.... He no longer even stocks Savages as he had too many returns from unsatisfied customers for various reasons. And for those of you who only shop at Walmart and think in terms of small shops and limited choices, this gun shop sells more guns in one day than five combined Walmarts typically stock...

BTW-- For those that think I'm bashing remington. Shut your darn mouth because I've dealt with the sorry SOB's already & will never give them another dime.

Glen: I hope this forum isn't reaching the level of that other one you frequent where you have to massage the backs of the owner and several of the moderators or your thoughts get censored.... "Shut your darn mouth".... that's harsh... Especially for you.....

Again....come look at my gun safes (sorry....in reality, invitation only.... ) and see if I'm ONLY a Remington man... because I happen to frequently support them when folks who probably have held one or two in a gun shop join the 50 year old chorus of "experts" chanting for their demise.

You'll have to really jack up your basic reloading skills over night, Glen, if the "big green weenie folds" and you have to start making your own "221 Furball" brass from scratch.

I'm curious, too.... Did you sell the one "big green weenie" you used to proudly own in 204 Ruger....?

JMO - BCB

[WrzWaldo]

LOL...!!! I figured the chest thumpers would get up enough machismo to provide some "facts" about how the world spins. Even though some of it is feeble and limited...

JMO - BCB

Please point to me where someone was giving the facts on how the world spins and not just expressing their opinions?

How do those of you who pick 'em off the shelf ready to consistently shoot BR groups do it....?

I don't think I've seen a mention of BR groups in this thread? I have seen mention of killing things...


--- Remainder of this post sent via PM ---

[Bayou City Boy]

And a PM back at ya'....

-BCB

[WrzWaldo]

And a PM back at ya'....

-BCB

You failed to answer my question above...

[Hawkeye Joe]

Bayou City Boy, Why all the direct and indirect attacks. I think we need to grow up and become Bayou City Man.

[Glen]

Sorry to disappoint you with my opinions on remington Hal but I've been thru the BS that they spew thru emails & over the phone. Been there done that. My 204 took a year to get shooting right. My CZ took 3 loads. My Marlin RF's shoot various ammo's very well & so does the Savage 17HMR. The Ruger MKII shoots 4 different ammo's very good out to 50yds also. The only other rifle I had trouble with was the 357 Marlin. Turns out it only likes the 185gr'ers. When I found those I started handloading that rig into a 1 1/2" at 100yds rifle running 1400fps. Plenty good for it's application in my own judgement as I prefer to not put a lot of rds thru it. I just like to keep it around for occasional personal pleasures. My CZ is not a BR caliber setup. I never said it was. I need 1/2" or less at 100yds & it gives me less than that quite regularly for 5rd groups. I'm not concerned with the discontinuation of 221 brass. I have enough to last the rest of my life & then some. I still have the Rem 204. It's tough to get rid of something that shoots that good now that I have done all the necessary work to get it to shoot. remington did nothing for me period. I filed the rough spots where the shell ramps out into the chamber. No more gouging the brass. I fixed the ejection problem. It would not consistently flip the spent case out every time. I did what I do not believe in doing & ran JB thru it to smooth up the barrel. I had to replace the firing pin spring which eliminated the cratering. The bolt face was rough as a cob. I'm tired of typing & both my fingers are getting tired as well. remington did nothing for me but tell me I didn't know what I was talking about. They didn't believe the gouged brass I sent them came from one of their rifles. As far as I'm concerned they are about as reliable & loyal to the American people as the
great texan george bush is. As long as they are gouging the American people in any way they can the feel they are doing ME a favor.

As far as "that other site" is concerned,, well,, I enjoy it very much. Probably always will.