Win Model 70 load aggravation

[Snoplop]

Bullet question-
I have an aggravating Win Model 70 Extreme Weather SS 243 and a stack of factory loads for it.
Bought it for my son several years ago, (his first big game rifle) with the intent of buying off the shelf ammo.

It’s a 243 - how hard can it be- well- my lever actions shoot tighter groups with open sights.
It cleanly harvested his first bear and has sat ever since. Bought him a 300 WIN MAG that shoots circles around it.

One trip to sage rat country and my son clamored on to the 204.
I would like to shoot it myself. So this might seem a little self-serving at first glance. Be that as it may. If I can get this dam 243 to shoot he will have a new object to hold his attention while I sneak off with the 204.

Now the challenge is finding a load combo that will prevent me buying a new barrel and using the factory barrel to stake out garden plants.

Seems this 243 has a long throat and using Sierra 85gr HPBT GameKing bullets 0.934 long (minus the 0.140) BT) may be a challenge. Using the Hornady Comparator to nest it in the rifling, the boat tail design only leaves around .060 for case tension.
Obviously not a good option to hunt critters.

Ball park of 243 cal would lead me to shove it back .183 (ish). That’s quite a jump to the rifling.

More pondering & the search for longer 85ish-grain bullets for a 1-10 twist found Berger's 88gr High BC Flat Base Varmint bullets are much longer 1.065. Flat base should help with case neck tension.

What little info I found, performance wasn’t spectacular. They tend to poke holes and not open up on little critters.
Any of you folks have some insight on a bullet to try?

I am at the beginning stage of this fiasco. Buying bullets, measuring, speculation and pondering if I should junk the barrel.
Unfortunate side effect of my crazy work schedule is the first holes in paper won’t appear for several days. So I will have more funds to buy bullets but less time for load research. Groan..

[skipper]

First question is do you reload? If the answer is yes then you have quite a few options.
.

243Bullets.jpg (50.71 KiB) Viewed 9466 times

If not then which brands of loaded ammo have you tried? Have you tried the Remington Premier 95 grain AccuTip Boat Tail? My Remington 243 likes them just fine.

Being 204 shooters we have a vast experience with trying to load out to the lands with little or no bullet left in the case neck for proper tension. The 204 Ruger doesn't seem to mind the jump to the lands. However, buying an aftermarket barrel from one of the better barrel makers (Pacnor, Lilja, Kreiger) and having your chamber machined with a custom reamer from Pacific Tool and Gauge will allow you to easily reach and jam into the lands. Several here have gone that route and have not been disappointed.

[Snoplop]

Yes'r, I reload but didnt intend to reload this 243.
Never expected to buy a 243 that shot so lousy. The 1-10 twist doesn't like heavy bullets so I am thinking a longer flat base design would allow loading closer to the rifling..

First few loads are Sierra 85gr. Prepped cases last night. Have Varget on hand. Not my first choice of powder but it should work.

[skipper]

The 95 Hornady SST should allow you to get closer to the lands and still expand enough for varmints. If you can find them.

[Snoplop]

Looking at the different on-line stability calculators.
Berger https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
or
JBM https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
The stability dies off with 88gr. Stability: 1.276
Marginal with 87gr. Stability: 1.322

The shorter 0.934- 85.0 Sierra HPBT (GameKing) Stability: 1.771 (gravy train if they will hop across a mile wide gap to the lands)
Granted these are rule of thumb until I get the actual FPS but leads me to believe its an up hill battle with heavier bullets.

Using generic inputs- https://www.jbmballistics.com/ballistic ... gths.shtml for length.
Muzzle Velocity: 3000.0 ft/s Barrel Twist: 10.0 in
Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg

[skipper]

True enough information. Some rifles will stabilize the heavier bullets and some won't. It might be worth a try though and then again they may just keyhole. Some 204 Rugers will stabilize the 45 grain pills and some won't in the standard 1:12 twist. Sounds to me like you're looking for a reason to buy an aftermarket barrel, eh? Then you get to specify all the particulars. Pacific tool and die can cut you a reamer that will let you load into the lands. I would tell you I have a particular liking for the Dan Lilja barrels, if you asked me.

I built this rifle several years back. I can jam the 35 grain Bergers .010 into the lands with ease.

Shehane.jpg (71.56 KiB) Viewed 9440 times

[Snoplop]

That is one heck of a nice critter getter.
Some day I would like to have a nice one hole shooter like that. Would sure be a pleasure to shoot.

Only have one 204 now- had a nice 24" heavy barreled 204 AR with all the $$ accoutrements. Absolutely sucked to carry and wouldn't group well until 300 yards. Its job as a coyote rifle was short. Come to find out the bullets were yawing like a curve ball (least that is my guess) and could shoot 5 shot groups the size of a quarter at 300 but 2" and larger at 1-200 yards.. most of the coyotes shots are closer and after toting it around figured it wasn't worth the trouble. Regular Browning A-Bolt 204 works better. That 204s red mist is something at close range but the AR s or a 22-250 are a better coyote gun - and a 243 COULD be if it would shoot.

I 'm dubious this 243 will pan out as a worthy cause but refuse to go down without driving all the nails in its coffin.
Paid good money for it- I would like to see justification for what they charge. And it would cleave off a hunk of critters off the landscape if I can wrap my head around what is needed for a tight shooting load.

I envision a barrel being used to properly stake out tomato plant is in my future.

[skipper]

Have you checked the torque on the action screws? It can have an influence on accuracy.

[Snoplop]

Yea, re-did the action torque- rear inside mount surface looked like a rat gnawed on it. Stock has an aluminum bed but it is buried in glass or some plastic goop leaving the action to seat on whatever-it-is. Cobbled together a hokey tin tape build up in front and back to relieve/stabilize torque pressure until I decide what direction to go with this.

In the mean time, I loaded some Sierra 85gr. HPBT Gamekings at 2.700" OAL. (0.120" jump)
COAL to rifling with these are 2.820".
Limiting factor is bullet length. Mag length is roughly 2.830.
I have re-checked these numbers and screwed them up numerous times so if I maybe off a few digits somewhere.
2.045 case + 0.945 bullet= 2.990
2.990-2.700 OAL =0.290 - 0.130" or 0.140" BT
Have the numbers roughed out at 0.160-0.170" of neck tension. (not counting the BT) The boat tail is dam hard to measure accurately.
Had to use the comparator to final the bullet seating- tips all vary a skosh. In the end I settled on 0.945 for bullet length.
Need longer light flat based bullets to squeeze out the bullet jump.

Bullet weight dictated by the 1-10 twist I figure is 95gr. or below.
Shot one 3 round group with factory Hornady 95gr SST to cement my disdain @ 3 1/2" so I expect lighter bullets are better.

Had Varget on hand and loaded a batch of Sierra 85gr. at 37.5gr (max is 38gr) from 2.650" to 2.700" COAL.
Once fired brass- same MFG- trimmed to length & bore bushed inside of the necks.
Loaded 6 at 2.700 & shot 2 groups. All at 100 yards.
First 3 shot group I discounted as fouling shots. 2nd group was the best & the next 2 subsequent groups had 2 touching plus a flier.
Best FPS split was at 2.700" - 2946-2947-2942 @ 3 round 0.625" group.
Seems promising but 3 rounds isn't a real clincher- hope for better proof before this is over.

From 2.680" - 2.690" had 2 touching and a flier 1" away. THAT frigging flier is my nemesis. Heat? Why always the third shot?
At 2.670" and shorter they opened up considerably albeit more naturally (no weird fliers) to 1 1/2".
Question if I compromised the test by not cleaning in between loads.

I've loaded more with Varget @ 2.700" COAL from 37.5 to 38gr. and hope some good will come out of it.

Also bought some H4350 & will be working up loads incrementally .5gr. to max @ 2.700" OAL. - everything I read points to H4350 or IMR4350 as the best powder to work with.

The cavernous jump & dealing with short neck tension seems ludicrous & a lot of crap to go through to get a 1K gun to shoot decent.

[Snoplop]

After much hand wringing – powder /bullet changes, C.O.A.L. changes - case weighing (I was desperate) and elimination of a dozen other factors.
And short a shot- cobbled this together at 100yds.
Preferable to see what a 10 shot group at 300yds looks like but its heading in the right direction now.
Next on the list- Vortex scope glitched & needs to be sent in. With luck it will be sorted out soon.

[Snoplop]

Wouldn't be a good example without some context. Here is one of it's typical minute-of-barn-door groups.
Every factory load I tried landed squarely in the crap zone. Improvement/progress has been made.
Saved the barrel from being used in a planter for now.

[skipper]

So what's the winning combination? How did you come up with that group. What turned the tide, so to speak?

[Snoplop]

If - anyone has (is stuck with) a WIN model 70 Extreme Weather SS 243 out of the S.C. batch (read spotty quality).
My conclusion is it has a preference for a much longer COAL and 85gr bullet sensitivity w/1-10 twist.
Bullet jump is still around 0.140. Seems crazy long.
Like flinging a frisbee at a funnel but, for whadever reason it works.

From my limited perspective, I have ascertained/eliminated several dozen ways it wont shoot worth a dam.
Factory loads were an exercise in futility and the very definition of turning lots of money into noise.

The necessity for a longer COAL (2.700 - CBTO 2.430 - vs 2.650 COAL or less for factory) & 85gr or lighter bullet with H4350.

The powder - H4350 or IMR 4350 seems to be the go-to powder for a majority of 243 shooters.
243 Sierra 85gr HPBT gamekings are touted so easy to load a caveman could do it.

It seems the gun was set up for longer bullets (long throat and mag well) with the wrong barrel twist to stabilize them.
Still pondering if I should have it whacked off and re-chambered.
Now that I have beaten this into submission my hope is to turn over the 'joys of reloading' HIS 243 to my son.

[truckerwalt]

i have a .243 with a shilen bbl. using 55 grain nosler varmageddon bullets, 50 grains H-414, remington 9.5 primers. this shoots into groups well below .2 inches. i know you are wanting a deer cartridge but this might work for you somewhere else and make you happy. i would dump that 243 and own a savage model 110 in 6.5 creedmoor and shoot 90 grain speer hpfb, at 3300 - 3400 fps would make a good pd. gun, coyote gun and i would not hesitate to shoot a deer with it. to go with a good custom bbl for your .243 would probably cost nearly $1000. if money is not there then get a savage ss bbl and smile every time you pull the trigger.

[Snoplop]

Yea, 20/20 hindsight & I should have just bought him a Cooper. Its my sons to deal with now. He is happy it shoots and has a go-to load for whatever critter fits the bill. Doubt we will give up on it but have the option to re barrel if aggravated.

At this point we have moved on and are preoccupied getting things ready for a moose hunt.
Got him a Browning X-Bolt He-ll's Canyon Long Range 300 Win Mag. (on the condition I got his old CZ550 300 mag.) - which- I dropped it off yesterday for a cerakote job. Have a new rings and scope waiting for it soon as it is done.

With any luck my wife, son & I will help thin out some wolves and fill our 2 moose tags.
Lots of wolves in Alberta.
Last time we went, bagging a moose & wolf wasn't the best part of the trip, it was so awesome up there.