Powder names are getting to an almost confusing point

[robert w.]

I wonder if consideration of liability ever comes up with names and labels? Im sure we all are careful but somewhere out there is tha 1.

[Bill K]

Sure it does, and you can see how the companies and their legal staff, covers themselves, as we all do, with the notices/warnings on the labels of the containers, just like we have home owners insurance clauses to cover someone being injured on our properties. Bill K

[robert w.]

I can see bubba grab the canister thats labled close to his powder . Load a few n fire 1. His barrel and action busts n he calls legal aid n sues.then we pay via higher prices

[Rick in Oregon]

As with any hobby, but especially ones that risk potential death or dismemberment, it is the personal responsibility of the user to be aware of not only the potential dangers involved, but display a modicum of common sense. "Grabbing the wrong container" is not the fault of anyone other than the one using the product and doing the "grabbing". There's not much legal recourse for not either being able to read, or failure to actually read a clearly marked canister label.

All these products we use have proper applications, and it's up to us to determine that what we're using is suited to our intentions and is safe. The manufacturers also assume that anyone using these products can read, and therefore make their own decisions based on both research and common sense. The latter seems to be sadly lacking in a segment of our population.

It's also not the fault of the manufacturers that local store clerks are ignorant of what they are selling, and also lack any degree of customer service protocol. In this case Robert, you may want to consider procuring your powder supplies via online ordering, that way you and you alone are responsible for what you are pouring into those cases.

I would not want to shop for my supplies at the retailer you mention either.

[robert w.]

from a crooked lawyers eye they will collect $$$ from the powder maker if they get hurt for that reason,we look but do THEY look? i was simply making a point but its become a no matter why i posted it im wrong

[Jim White]

Robert W.

As others have said be careful and seek out answers if you're not sure or something doesn't look right. Powder manufacturers are-not immune to mistakes, such as loading a different type of powder into containers with different labels. Although rare, it happens.

Here is something I came across a few years back;

It's been my experience that Hodgdon's EXTREME line of powders has a green olive drab color. Up until this event, I had never powder in that line that wasn't.

I purchased a 8-lb keg of H4198. The powder in the 1-lb jar I had initially purchased [and had used up] had the familiar GREEN look to it. When I open the 8-lb container instead of the GREEN look, it had the typical dark gray color of the IMR line, otherwise it looked correct in shape and size.

Before I used one kernel of it, I wrote Hodgdon and explained what I had discovered. I provided them the LOT# and they replied that it was ok to use and although the color was different, it had no effect on the burn rate. I don't remember the reason but they went on to explain the color difference so I went ahead and used it and everything has been fine with it.

I don't know your experience level but personally, I would never purchase used powder from someone I knew and trusted unless it was still factory sealed, and even then, I would open it up and smell it and inspect it to verify it hasn't been stored in such a manner that it has started to breakdown. With that, powder properly stored will last for years.

Be careful out there and don't be afraid to ask questions,

Jim

[MZ5]

It's been my experience that Hodgdon's EXTREME line of powders has a green olive drab color. Up until this event, I had never powder in that line that wasn't.

I purchased a 8-lb keg of H4198. The powder in the 1-lb jar I had initially purchased [and had used up] had the familiar GREEN look to it. When I open the 8-lb container instead of the GREEN look, it had the typical dark gray color of the IMR line, otherwise it looked correct in shape and size.

Before I used one kernel of it, I wrote Hodgdon and explained what I had discovered. I provided them the LOT# and they replied that it was ok to use and although the color was different, it had no effect on the burn rate. I don't remember the reason but they went on to explain the color difference so I went ahead and used it and everything has been fine with it.

Hodgdon does or did mix suppliers in 4198 at least. The Thales-sourced (Aussie) stuff is the greenish color as always, and the General Dynamics-sourced (Canadian) stuff is still the graphite black.

I _seriously_ dislike this practice, because it eliminates one of our (handloaders’) ways of verifying that what’s in the container is in fact what is supposed to be there. If it looks noticeably different than what we’re used to, and how we know it should look, we should stop and try to figure out what’s wrong. Hodgdon are essentially training us to not look or check, because they’re consciously choosing to make the visual checks invalid when they do this.

OP, I sympathize with your point, even if I don’t have too much concern that I’ll confuse Hodgdon powder in your particular example with the long-standing Alliant powder of a similar name.

[Bill K]

Robert W.

I purchased a 8-lb keg of H4198. The powder in the 1-lb jar I had initially purchased [and had used up] had the familiar GREEN look to it. When I open the 8-lb container instead of the GREEN look, it had the typical dark gray color of the IMR line, otherwise it looked correct in shape and size.

It would be nice if a color code, along with the name/type of powder was a standard policy. But since it is not, I will just make sure that the name/type of powder is what I want and not depend on color code.
In fact I recently purchased a 8lb canister of IMR 4198 and it's color on label is a reddish brown.. So even they have probably changed colors. Bill K

[jsh]

As mentioned it is a play on words, all related to marketing. I visited with a fellow in industry (powder) a while back. I had a few questions and he was as tight lipped as a snapping turtle, then would change the subject.
My suspicions, after seeing some of the older powders discontinued, the manufacturing process and chemicals involved are causing the problems of disposal of residues. Some of it is pretty nasty stuff. So the are searching for new mixes, along with added benefits for the marketing side.

As to your intital complaint about words and numbers being close, that is nothing new at all. The SR and IMR powders have been that way for years as have others. There are rifle powders with the same number, yet a fair bit off in burn rates and are NOT interchangeable with data. Then we have powders that are the exact same thing in different labels with no inclination of even being relatively close. Nothing new about it.

As to new powders. I am set in my ways and thoughts as an other old fart, change is a pita. BUT, it can also be an advance as well. I have let my guard down and tried several new powders in the last ten or so years,8208,R26, all of the CFE powders just to name a few. I have friends that refuse to do so. Well I am not figuring on stopping my shooting habit any time soon. New powders I may as well taste test them if they keep dropping some off and on. Drop a power and I am not going to ru. All over the country trying to "stock" up, silly to me. I was and am a big SR 4759 user, discontinued. I had some on hand, then with out looking was offered a large amount for half price, so I did. Must have 20-30 pounds on hand, but I am still looking for a replacement.

As to your store issue. In my book, service sells period. The old triangle again good-fast-cheap, you can only pick two. Gun shops and sporting goods stores are not even close to what they used to be. Employees don't know the difference between a barb and an eye on a hook. Get around the reloading supplies and ask for primers and they tell you we don't have paint supplies. I can't hardly stand to go to the local big box sporting goods store, in fear some stupid may rub off on me, I can get that with no help from others.

Jeff

[Bill K]

[As to your store issue. In my book, service sells period. The old triangle again good-fast-cheap, you can only pick two. Gun shops and sporting goods stores are not even close to what they used to be. Employees don't know the difference between a barb and an eye on a hook. Get around the reloading supplies and ask for primers and they tell you we don't have paint supplies. I can't hardly stand to go to the local big box sporting goods store, in fear some stupid may rub off on me, I can get that with no help from others.

Jeff
[/quote]

Is that not the truth, many times now days. Love the comparison. Bill K

[Jim White]

As mentioned it is a play on words, all related to marketing. I visited with a fellow in industry (powder) a while back. I had a few questions and he was as tight lipped as a snapping turtle, then would change the subject.
My suspicions, after seeing some of the older powders discontinued, the manufacturing process and chemicals involved are causing the problems of disposal of residues. Some of it is pretty nasty stuff. So the are searching for new mixes, along with added benefits for the marketing side.

As to your intital complaint about words and numbers being close, that is nothing new at all. The SR and IMR powders have been that way for years as have others. There are rifle powders with the same number, yet a fair bit off in burn rates and are NOT interchangeable with data. Then we have powders that are the exact same thing in different labels with no inclination of even being relatively close. Nothing new about it.

As to new powders. I am set in my ways and thoughts as an other old fart, change is a pita. BUT, it can also be an advance as well. I have let my guard down and tried several new powders in the last ten or so years,8208,R26, all of the CFE powders just to name a few. I have friends that refuse to do so. Well I am not figuring on stopping my shooting habit any time soon. New powders I may as well taste test them if they keep dropping some off and on. Drop a power and I am not going to ru. All over the country trying to "stock" up, silly to me. I was and am a big SR 4759 user, discontinued. I had some on hand, then with out looking was offered a large amount for half price, so I did. Must have 20-30 pounds on hand, but I am still looking for a replacement.

As to your store issue. In my book, service sells period. The old triangle again good-fast-cheap, you can only pick two. Gun shops and sporting goods stores are not even close to what they used to be. Employees don't know the difference between a barb and an eye on a hook. Get around the reloading supplies and ask for primers and they tell you we don't have paint supplies. I can't hardly stand to go to the local big box sporting goods store, in fear some stupid may rub off on me, I can get that with no help from others.

Jeff

I agree with every word you said, especially the last sentence.

[robert w.]

With adults eating tide pods,its clear stupidity must rub off or be heriditory . Or both

[skipper]

Adults?? I think the jury is still out.

[robert w.]

Well lets say old nuff to know better but ...

[Darkker]

As mentioned it is a play on words, all related to marketing. I visited with a fellow in industry (powder) a while back. I had a few questions and he was as tight lipped as a snapping turtle, then would change the subject.
My suspicions, after seeing some of the older powders discontinued, the manufacturing process and chemicals involved are causing the problems of disposal of residues. Some of it is pretty nasty stuff. So the are searching for new mixes, along with added benefits for the marketing side.

As to your intital complaint about words and numbers being close, that is nothing new at all. The SR and IMR powders have been that way for years as have others. There are rifle powders with the same number, yet a fair bit off in burn rates and are NOT interchangeable with data. Then we have powders that are the exact same thing in different labels with no inclination of even being relatively close. Nothing new about it.

As to new powders. I am set in my ways and thoughts as an other old fart, change is a pita. BUT, it can also be an advance as well. I have let my guard down and tried several new powders in the last ten or so years,8208,R26, all of the CFE powders just to name a few.

I wonder who you think the "industry" is? You reference IMR, they don't make rifle powder, haven't in a good while. The bulk of what you know as IMR right powder is made by a Defense contractor named General Dynamics. The former IMR plant in Quebec was torn down and totally rebuilt a couple years ago now.
Hodgy is a surplus blender and reseller only, that's all they've ever been. They will choke a nun to get a penny on the ground first. Ever notice (until the latest website update) they said H335 was designed for the 5.56, and Bl-c(2) for the 308? Neither of those things were true. The parent grade powder for both those names has its patent date in the mid 1930's.
CFE is new tech taken from the US military? No the fundamental tech confess from the French around 1900, but the additional bismuth compounds came from General Dynamics, almost 20 years ago now. Before Hodgdon "created it" many of us loved $9/# surplus SMP842.