accuracy at 100 yards
Re: accuracy at 100 yards
Fred and Jim,
I'm trying to learn something here. I've racked my brain to try to discern the meaning of your statement"BC per se has no effect on accuracy". I have a Remington X-P 100 pistol that I tried many bullet makers and bullet configurations with to get it to shoot straight. I started out shoot Sierra 52 grain hollow point boat tails, a match bullet. I got horrible results, bullets hitting the target sideways. Then I worked down with different bullet brands,powders,and weights configurations. I was ready to throw in the towel, my last resort was a 40 grain Hornady varmint bullet and every shot starting hitting hole on hole. I know the 52 grain Sierra Matchking has a better BC than the 40 grain Hornady. Is this what you mean by "BC per se has no effect on accuracy"?. ifldned
I'm trying to learn something here. I've racked my brain to try to discern the meaning of your statement"BC per se has no effect on accuracy". I have a Remington X-P 100 pistol that I tried many bullet makers and bullet configurations with to get it to shoot straight. I started out shoot Sierra 52 grain hollow point boat tails, a match bullet. I got horrible results, bullets hitting the target sideways. Then I worked down with different bullet brands,powders,and weights configurations. I was ready to throw in the towel, my last resort was a 40 grain Hornady varmint bullet and every shot starting hitting hole on hole. I know the 52 grain Sierra Matchking has a better BC than the 40 grain Hornady. Is this what you mean by "BC per se has no effect on accuracy"?. ifldned
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Re: accuracy at 100 yards
Per se (“by itselfâ€Â), from per (“by, throughâ€Â), and se (“itself, himself, herself, themselvesâ€Â).
My thought (and I believe Fred's too) is just because one bullet has a higer BC than another, that fact alone won't make the round any more accurate. There is too many other sticks in the fire that can affect accuracy from round-to-round.
Having said that:
1. Two bullets weighing the same and traveling at the same speed, the higher BC bullet will have less drop and resist the wind better, but won't make it more accurate.
2. Within a specific caliber, a match type bullet (probably with a higher BC) has much higher tolerences for consistency. However, they can be tempermental when it to seating distance to the lands and barrel twist.
3. A higher BC helps the bullet stay above Mach 1 (speed of sound) for a greater distance. Once a bullet drops below the sound barrier other forces start to kick in to making the bullet unstable, thus less accurate.
Both 1 & 2 above help make a bullet fly truer from shot-to-shot but the other things of the load, firearm and shooter has to be optomized as well.
To play with numbers go to jbmballistics.com>calculators>trajectory and fill in the data for your specific situation. Down near the bottom there are several boxes you can click one is lable "mark sound barrier crossing". Try looking at two different bullets of the same weight with different BC's and using the same velocity, see how the fly different from one another.
HTH,
Jim
My thought (and I believe Fred's too) is just because one bullet has a higer BC than another, that fact alone won't make the round any more accurate. There is too many other sticks in the fire that can affect accuracy from round-to-round.
Having said that:
1. Two bullets weighing the same and traveling at the same speed, the higher BC bullet will have less drop and resist the wind better, but won't make it more accurate.
2. Within a specific caliber, a match type bullet (probably with a higher BC) has much higher tolerences for consistency. However, they can be tempermental when it to seating distance to the lands and barrel twist.
3. A higher BC helps the bullet stay above Mach 1 (speed of sound) for a greater distance. Once a bullet drops below the sound barrier other forces start to kick in to making the bullet unstable, thus less accurate.
Both 1 & 2 above help make a bullet fly truer from shot-to-shot but the other things of the load, firearm and shooter has to be optomized as well.
To play with numbers go to jbmballistics.com>calculators>trajectory and fill in the data for your specific situation. Down near the bottom there are several boxes you can click one is lable "mark sound barrier crossing". Try looking at two different bullets of the same weight with different BC's and using the same velocity, see how the fly different from one another.
HTH,
Jim
Re: accuracy at 100 yards
Fred and Jim,
We can agree on that. Just because a bullet has higher BC doesn't mean it will always shoot straighter under all conditions . I'm still having trouble following the reasoning that a bullet that shoots 1 moa at 100 yards will also shoot 3 moa at 300 yards. It seems like simple math but I believe that might only hold true if the bullet is shot in a airless vacuum chamber. I'm going to try the ballistics calculator you recommended it sounds more detailed than the one I'm using.
thanks ifldned
We can agree on that. Just because a bullet has higher BC doesn't mean it will always shoot straighter under all conditions . I'm still having trouble following the reasoning that a bullet that shoots 1 moa at 100 yards will also shoot 3 moa at 300 yards. It seems like simple math but I believe that might only hold true if the bullet is shot in a airless vacuum chamber. I'm going to try the ballistics calculator you recommended it sounds more detailed than the one I'm using.
thanks ifldned
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Re: accuracy at 100 yards
I don't have an answer why one that shoots good @ 100 won't shoot good at 200...300...ifldned wrote:Fred and Jim,
We can agree on that. Just because a bullet has higher BC doesn't mean it will always shoot straighter under all conditions . I'm still having trouble following the reasoning that a bullet that shoots 1 moa at 100 yards will also shoot 3 moa at 300 yards. It seems like simple math but I believe that might only hold true if the bullet is shot in a airless vacuum chamber. I'm going to try the ballistics calculator you recommended it sounds more detailed than the one I'm using.
thanks ifldned
But, I've seen that, many times, which is why I load test @ 200 yds when ever possible.
HTH,
Re: accuracy at 100 yards
I am sorry for complicating things ya'll have almost simplified. But mathematically 1 moa at 100 is 3 moa 300. It's math.
I understand that in the real world the wind changes direction and speed. But a bullet, powder, primer and rifle combination that is 1 moa at 100 that does not shoot 3 moa at 300 is the shooters fault.
It doesn't mean the rifle isn't 3 moa at 300, it means the shooter isn't.
No I don't shoot benchrest and I'm not very good at long range but it is still math.
My $.02.
I understand that in the real world the wind changes direction and speed. But a bullet, powder, primer and rifle combination that is 1 moa at 100 that does not shoot 3 moa at 300 is the shooters fault.
It doesn't mean the rifle isn't 3 moa at 300, it means the shooter isn't.
No I don't shoot benchrest and I'm not very good at long range but it is still math.
My $.02.
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Re: accuracy at 100 yards
Actually;TXNinVA wrote:I am sorry for complicating things ya'll have almost simplified. But mathematically 1 moa at 100 is 3 moa 300. It's math.
1MOA @ 100 yards (1")
1MOA @ 300 yards (3")
3MOA @ 300 yards (9")
At least that is how I understand it...
HTH,
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Re: accuracy at 100 yards
Let me rephrase, I’ve seen .25 MOA groups at 100 yds that would not perform the same at 200 yards. Usually it’s linear but I’ve seen it when it wasn’t. I’ve also seen it when a load that wouldn’t print that well at 100/200 yds would group real well at 500/600 yds.ifldned wrote:I'm still having trouble following the reasoning that a bullet that shoots 1 moa at 100 yards will also shoot 3 moa at 300 yards.
But, if you’re saying that it shoots 1 MOA at 100 (1â€Â) but won’t shoot 3 MOA @ 300 yards (9â€Â) then something needs to be addressed. Do you mean 3†at 300 yards which is 1 MOA?
Also, when load testing try and remember that 0.008†of muzzle movement equates to 1MOA down range. Therefore, its paramount that the shooter get situated/fitted in at the bench before firing a shot down range.
HTH
Re: accuracy at 100 yards
Yeah, I ment if it shoots 1moa at 100(being 1 inch), it should be able to shoot inside 3inches at 300.
Re: accuracy at 100 yards
I've been doing my best to stay out of this squabble but you guys are getting weird.
Your all right.
Your all wrong also
A load capable of 1 moa at 100yds is not capable of 1 moa at 300yds just because its easy math.
Theres a gazillion things that happen in those last 200yds not even including the wind.
Going backwards to Freds contention lets think about this.
300yds is considered by most to be the magic point where short range accuracy ends and ballistics begin.
Es and SD (whicever you prefer) really JUST START to become important at 300yds in most modern centerfire high performance cartridges.
A debatable point I'm sure but you don't see many short range Benchresters worried about chrono numbers and they're variations.
Smallest five shot group I've ever shot at 100yds(.048) had over 200fps ES. Figure that one out.
Es and SD will start messing with a group at 300yds.
Neck tension variables do more to mess up groups at 100yds than Es will at 300. Maybe not every load, every gun, every bullet but I've seen enough to know POI will change with neck tension. Even if ES remains averaged.
Lets cut it short and get to Freds contention. An accurate bullet all by itself is indeed accurate, Yes
Take out all the other variables and it is still an accurate bullet. Maybe THE most accurate bullet
Other projys may cut the wind better. Other projys may handle ES better. Thats simply ballistics.
For the shooting I do (100-300yds) I choose the most accurate bullet not the BC.
Accuracy first and worry about the wind later is my choice. YMMV
1 moa @ 100yds = 1moa at 300yds. Noone could tell the difference with that type of accuracy.
Take out all the variables, BC, ES, wind, tension and anything else that will cause a group to disperse.
All outside variables removed a bullet capable of .01 moa @ 100 is still not likely to shoot .01 moa @ 300yds.
Why not? No five bullets are perfect.
Throw in a little non concentric jacket, meplat in the mix and it will be seen downrange more than up close. Simple as that.
I agree with Jim. Many loads that shoot well at 100 don't seem to do well at 300, even 200.
I've also seen factory guns capable of .03 moa @ 100yds shoot .02 moa groups and less at 300yds with low BC bullets. Conditions will always change and that magic disappears fast.
Sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes the wind blows em all in Does'nt happen often enough for me.
Where the he!!s BCB when you need em! He knows this stuff a million times better than I.
Your all right.
Your all wrong also
A load capable of 1 moa at 100yds is not capable of 1 moa at 300yds just because its easy math.
Theres a gazillion things that happen in those last 200yds not even including the wind.
Going backwards to Freds contention lets think about this.
300yds is considered by most to be the magic point where short range accuracy ends and ballistics begin.
Es and SD (whicever you prefer) really JUST START to become important at 300yds in most modern centerfire high performance cartridges.
A debatable point I'm sure but you don't see many short range Benchresters worried about chrono numbers and they're variations.
Smallest five shot group I've ever shot at 100yds(.048) had over 200fps ES. Figure that one out.
Es and SD will start messing with a group at 300yds.
Neck tension variables do more to mess up groups at 100yds than Es will at 300. Maybe not every load, every gun, every bullet but I've seen enough to know POI will change with neck tension. Even if ES remains averaged.
Lets cut it short and get to Freds contention. An accurate bullet all by itself is indeed accurate, Yes
Take out all the other variables and it is still an accurate bullet. Maybe THE most accurate bullet
Other projys may cut the wind better. Other projys may handle ES better. Thats simply ballistics.
For the shooting I do (100-300yds) I choose the most accurate bullet not the BC.
Accuracy first and worry about the wind later is my choice. YMMV
1 moa @ 100yds = 1moa at 300yds. Noone could tell the difference with that type of accuracy.
Take out all the variables, BC, ES, wind, tension and anything else that will cause a group to disperse.
All outside variables removed a bullet capable of .01 moa @ 100 is still not likely to shoot .01 moa @ 300yds.
Why not? No five bullets are perfect.
Throw in a little non concentric jacket, meplat in the mix and it will be seen downrange more than up close. Simple as that.
I agree with Jim. Many loads that shoot well at 100 don't seem to do well at 300, even 200.
I've also seen factory guns capable of .03 moa @ 100yds shoot .02 moa groups and less at 300yds with low BC bullets. Conditions will always change and that magic disappears fast.
Sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes the wind blows em all in Does'nt happen often enough for me.
Where the he!!s BCB when you need em! He knows this stuff a million times better than I.
Savage VLP + NF 12x42 + 35 Bergers = .
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Re: accuracy at 100 yards
Good debate folks...
Re: accuracy at 100 yards
Jim,
You're right, what I meant is a rifle that shoots 1 moa at 100 yards, which is one inch groups roughly will not necessarily hold 1 moa at 300 yards, which is 3 in groups. Thanks for straightening me out on a misunderstanding again. Also, I appreciated learning of the fact that it only takes .008 inch of barrel movement to result in 1 inch at 100 yards. I learned alot from this exchange of thoughts. I am new to shooting over 200 yards and hope to learn more from you nice gentlemen in the future.
ifldned
You're right, what I meant is a rifle that shoots 1 moa at 100 yards, which is one inch groups roughly will not necessarily hold 1 moa at 300 yards, which is 3 in groups. Thanks for straightening me out on a misunderstanding again. Also, I appreciated learning of the fact that it only takes .008 inch of barrel movement to result in 1 inch at 100 yards. I learned alot from this exchange of thoughts. I am new to shooting over 200 yards and hope to learn more from you nice gentlemen in the future.
ifldned
Re: accuracy at 100 yards
Well I think your wrong!
Na, I'm just kidding. Good info. I did get some long heavy bullets for my 223, and was told to ignore my 100 yards results. Check groups starting at 200. I did get an explanation why, but I am thinking it is related to info in this thread. Thanks from me too.
Na, I'm just kidding. Good info. I did get some long heavy bullets for my 223, and was told to ignore my 100 yards results. Check groups starting at 200. I did get an explanation why, but I am thinking it is related to info in this thread. Thanks from me too.
Re: accuracy at 100 yards
Fred Dobbs,
Thanks for your insight on the BC of bullets. I took it to heart and now see the wisdom of your statements. Sorry for the very subtle snub too. I'm a shooter who has quit shooting for 25 years and at that time I was on the top tier of shooters both rifle and pistol. It takes guys like you, to point out to guys like me that I'm 25 years behind the times. In the old days we didn't have all the calculators and data and charts. We just went by trial and error and that was the knowledge we used. I hope you accept my apologizes because I hope to learn from you in the future. Right now I'm just a guy who is shooting squirrels for a friend who owns almond and walnut orchards. I use benchrest 22lrs out to 200 yards and would like to extend my range out farther with a .204. I can't imagine hitting a squirrel at 400-450 yards. But if I ever do that will be one of the highlights of my life. Sincerely, ifldned
Thanks for your insight on the BC of bullets. I took it to heart and now see the wisdom of your statements. Sorry for the very subtle snub too. I'm a shooter who has quit shooting for 25 years and at that time I was on the top tier of shooters both rifle and pistol. It takes guys like you, to point out to guys like me that I'm 25 years behind the times. In the old days we didn't have all the calculators and data and charts. We just went by trial and error and that was the knowledge we used. I hope you accept my apologizes because I hope to learn from you in the future. Right now I'm just a guy who is shooting squirrels for a friend who owns almond and walnut orchards. I use benchrest 22lrs out to 200 yards and would like to extend my range out farther with a .204. I can't imagine hitting a squirrel at 400-450 yards. But if I ever do that will be one of the highlights of my life. Sincerely, ifldned