My handloads stink up the entire West Coast...

[goosebrown]

"May the Fairy of Ammo Bliss visit you this "

Whilst risking being shot for this... I think you might BE the Fairy of Ammo Bliss.... And it seems that you HAVE visited. Thank you!

My groups are a better than they were so I think the general caution is worth doing, but still not great. What I have found is the Remington and the Savage both shoot to the same impact point and both spew my handloads out like a handful of chicken scratch (somewhat better now...) However both shoot the factory Hornady loads pretty well. I think the rifles are not the issue.

I think your seating depth advice is really good. I have been using the recommended length but since I have factory loads I am going to take them and reduce my loads to slightly under that. See how that works.

Still might invest in a better scale and a powder tricker.

Going to get a chamber depth gauge. I need one.

I have one other thing to throw out there. I messed up setting up the press and put the large rifle primer guide in so the primer was seating, but may not have been spot on so perhaps the primers were not functioning at 100%. That problem is fixed so we get to see what happens next week...

This really is fun even if not going that fast.

[goosebrown]

So I checked my reloads and they are indeed a lot longer than the factory loads although they are within maximum. I am going to seat everything to factory depth for now and try another batch. They were chambering a little hard so I bet it is the curve of the bullet being sharper and the depth a little higher that is causing the problem.

[FireBallGuy]

I would have to say ditto of the VG's. My remy loves them and my bro inlaw's ruger HATES them. I see the VG's as having limited use any way, I would go with another bullet and not loose any sleep over it.

[goosebrown]

OK so the info here has been excellent. I need to ask more...

What I want to work on right now is the seating depth. I believe my loads are all seated too high. It is hard to close the action on some of these loads so I think that the bullet is going right into the leade and onto the rifling. I think that is bad.

So I tried seating the bulled deeper and something really weird happened. The bullets fell through the neck into the base of the cartridge. Now I don't think that should happen. Only the neck right at the mouth was tight enough to hold the bullet, as the ogive of the bullet came into contact with the mouth, there was no more pressure on the bullet as it was being seated as it's diameter relative to the neck at the mouth was decreasing and it slid right into the case. I think that the barrel of the bullet already in the neck should be in contact with the neck and held there through pressure with the case wall throughout the length of the bullet in the neck except maybe at the very mouth where the bullet is starting to decrease diameter relative to the neck.

I thought that when you resized, I have a Hornady full length resizing die, that the neck throughout its length should be the same diameter. That is the interior diameter at the opening of the neck at the mouth should be the same interior diameter as the neck where it meets the shoulder. If that were the case then there would be pressure on the bullet from all sides of the neck not just in a short ring around the mouth itself.

Ideas? Could this die be bad?

[FireBallGuy]

Had a similar neck tension issue. Solution.....turf those cheap dies, get a set of the redding Type S dies with the bushings and start making top shelf ammo! Get that hornady AOL and gauge as well and see how long you can seat your bullets out. If I shoot my remy single shot, I can load my ammo to 2.450"AOL, as it is, I load to 2.325 +/- a bit and the gun shoots great. General rule of thumb, seat bullets to magazine length. Tight chambering cases could be many factors, sounds like you need to tweak your sizer a bit to size MORE of the case. Hope this helps.

[OldTurtle]

It is hard to close the action on some of these loads

That's usually an indication that your sizing die is not bumping you case shoulder back far enough,,,,Are you setting your sizing die where is has to 'cam over' each time, or are you possibly 'short stroking' the lever on the press??

As far as having inconsistencies on the neck tension, you might want to re-check the position of your neck sizing ball on the stem..I've looked back through the thread and didn't see what kind of dies you are using (my bad, it was in your last post), so all of my comments are based on Forster Benchrest dies...mine is adjustable..and there is a specific position for it to work properly..Yours may just need a little tweaking.. I've been able to seat 75gr A-Max bullets in a .223 case where the ogive is below the case neck and the bullet was tight....It's not really a safe practice, but I had an AR that wasn't producing the groups I thought it should and it was an experiment that worked, before I got rid of it..

Most .204s, unless you have a custom cut chamber, have a pretty good 'jump' to the lands and it's hard to seat bullets to the point where that distance doesn't exist...but you really need to determine what your chamber length happens to be....

Another point that I missed, if it was there, is the case trim length you are using...I usually trim new (to me) brass just a hair under normal trim length the first time so the case can 'grow' into my chamber dimension...and I very seldom have issues later down the line...I don't shoot/load 'hot' loads, as my accuracy is usually found between .4 and .7gr below the published max loads, so the effect on my brass is minimal...

[M_D]

Consistent neck tension is important for consistent accuracy, so once you get that straightened out you should start seeing some good gains. Personally, I believe unless your brass is quite consistent in thickness around the neck from one case to another that sizing the neck with an expander is better than the bushing type. Either will work, but depending on the circumstances one may be better than the other. This would be a good time to use the calipers and get to the bottom of it by measuring the neck after sizing. The die may be bad, but more likely something is just not adjusted correctly. The fact the bullet fell through the neck and the bolt is hard to turn is almost positive proof the cases aren't being sized correctly. I know of some situations where the die needs to be shortened a few thousands of an inch to size the case shoulder properly, but it sound like more than that if nearly the whole neck is loose.

If the bullet were seated some what tightly and it was touching the lands, there would be some witness marks made on the bullet, although you may need to look hard. The same goes for the case if the shoulder is not bumped back enough. Often in that case ( no pun intended) there will be marks left on the case head left by the bolt. Using a felt tip marker to check clearances works well and makes it easier to see how two parts are fitting together and spot interference areas.

[goosebrown]

OK this is great.

Went to the range last night with new loads and some improvement. Still not sizing correctly I think due to difficulty closing bolt... yeah.. it takes some time to sink in...

Got all groups with a couple shots touching and some fliers. Not consistent, but seeing some positives in all this.

So latest advice boils down to setting the sizing die correctly. I have it touching the shell plate now and I am carefully camming all the way down on the lever. I have been measuring the necks and they are perfect to about the last mm or so where they get wider by .01 or so. I will try readjusting and if that doesn't work, I will try to grind off a little scootch at the bottom of the die.

However, the necks are all giving good consistent tension now.

I think though that I also have the seating die a little too far down because I am getting a slight doughnut on the base of the shoulder on some cases and I think that is because the case lengths might not be identical and the longer ones are getting a little pressure directly downwards on the edge of the throat when the bullet is seated. I probably set it up with a short case so that when a long case was inserted it caused deformation. This leads me to another piece of advice...

OldTurtle. You mention that you trim your brass to slightly under recommended trim length. How much? I did a go/no-go with the brass and as long as it was less than max I left it. I think that is how the bullet seating started causing problems. I am going to retrim everything to consistent length. What length do you use? Recommended that I can find is 1.840" If I went to 1.83 would that be enough? Too much?

Except for sucking up you gentlemen's time and looking like a kook next to the 6mm benchrest guy next to me at the range, this is fun trying to figure it all out. I love process like this.

[Rick in Oregon]

goose: Don't grind on that die unless you have a precision surface grinder with the proper clamping arrangement and know how to go about it. Hand grinding will result in the die being ruined forever.

If you really think this is required, either take it to a machine shop or better yet, just call CS and send the thing back if you truly believe it's out of spec by being too long to properly size your brass. JMO

[jo191145]

Matt

If your using a standard seater some models come with a roll crimp feature built in. If its adjusted to hit the shellholder this feature will kick in.

End result some longer pieces of brass will bulge just under the shoulders making chambering difficult if not impossible. Varying lengths of brass will give varying crimps which shows up on the target as variable groups
Bottom line you don't want the roll crimp at all. If it is a standard seater loosen the die lock nut. Put a long piece of brass in the shellholder with ram up. Screw the seater down and you'll feel it hit the case. Back off 1/2 turn for future growth and lock it down. Roll crimp is now disabled.

[goosebrown]

OK. Know that one, I think that I just set the seater on a short piece and didn't back off enough. I can fix that. Sometimes I want a roll crimp on 308 so I know what it is and how to get it. I think my reference brass was the wrong piece. I am glad to get confirmation that that may be an issue though.

Do you have an overall case length you trim to?

Won't grind till I am sure it needs it or that it is needed. Will call Hornady now and see what they say.

[goosebrown]

Hornady support agreed with pretty much everything you guys are saying. He added though that seating depth is not just an accuracy issue, but a safety issue because he thinks that if you seat the bullet to the rifling, you are going to get dangerous pressures. He recommended trim length of 1.840" and if you want to trim to the minimum size you have that is not going to hurt anything and an overall length of 2.245", nothing more.

On the resizer he said to raise the ram to the full run out and set the seater to the shell plate then lower the ram and retighten the die in increments to 1/4 turn testing as you go to fix the neck/shoulder area. He states it is safe and will take up all the tolerances in the various parts of the ram.

He also agreed that the seater was causing a roll crimp on the longer brass.

So back to the press and the trimmer for me and we'll see where we go.

You guys are great!

[jo191145]

Standard trim length is usually 1.840. Nosler brass which is my choice comes pretrimmed and chamfered to 1.835.
Checked a few Savage chambers over the years and they always miked out to 1.870 - 1.880 range. Plenty of slop in a Sav chamber.

Do you have a method of measuring headspace on your brass? You need one. Even if its a crude method its better than none.
On occassion when I loan out all my tools I've used a piece of 308 brass. Very crude and subject to error but it can be done with perserverance.

Try screwing your FL die further down past "just touching" the shell holder. Most presses have plenty of slop in the linkage that needs to be taken up.
If your seater is bulging the case below the shoulders you can easily measure the difference between seated and tight to chamber compared to just sized brass. With a necksizer you'll see a .004" difference roughly. With a FL sizer that should be more like .007" roughly. You can see the difference by eye if you know to look.

[jo191145]

The directions you gave in your last post are a crude method of adjusting a FL die not a seater with roll crimp. Adjust your seater up!

Take care of the seater problem first. Then maybe you'll need to adjust your FL sizer down, maybe not.

[M_D]

In my opinion a lathe is the best tool for trimming dies.