Remington Model 700 VS SF II VS. Savage Model 12 LRPV DBM?

[Sidewinderwa]

I bought the Remington 700 Varmint SF in 17 Fireball. It is at the gunsmith now. Could not get it to shoot under 3/4". Most of the groups were well over 1". It will have a new stock, trigger job and bolt trued up when done. Both my Savage 12 VLP and 11 Thumbhole shot 3 shots under a dime out of the box at 100 yards. I have not had any ejection problems. One of them is a little finicky loading some bullets though. Sierra bullets load and shoot great out of them so I am happy. I would choose Savage any time. I am building a 20 VarTarg on a Savage target action now. It is a single shot for bench work on Skippy. It was still much cheaper buying a custom barrel and stock that I like than buying a Cooper. I went through the Cooper plant and just did not like the stocks, for my taste.

[Jim White]

SAVAGE:

I own two Savage 17 HMR's. The shoot pretty good but one of them required extensive work to bring out the accuracy potential. Also their magazine fitting is lacking to be desired (some fit and some don't) and one of them required an aftermarket trigger. As far as their customer service, it was subpar and no where to be seen or heard from be it from a phone, email or a letter.

REMINGTON:

I own four Model 700 (one is a 40x) all of them centerfires. Each one required bedding and free floating to bring out their potential but all of them will shoot less than 0.5" groups @ 200 yards all day long. My 6mm was quite finikey to find the right load but it too finally came together. I've never had to replace any parts to get them to shoot well nor used their customer service.

HTH,

[FireBallGuy]

I also HAVE an SPS in 17 fireball that apparently was not headspaced properly at the factory, the gun shoots very well but getting anything but factory ammo or new brass to chamber has required some work and MUCH swearing! Still one of my favorite rifles as I like shooting holes in dimes at 100 yards!

[Wrangler John]

If I recall, there was a program on The Outdoor Channel that made a trip through the Remington plant. They showed the M-700 barrels being made on a roto-forging machine that pretty much brought the barrel to finished contour dimensions. This isn't to say that hammer forged barrels are bad, most manufacturers use this technique as it saves time and produces good quality barrels. What it also does is introduce stress into the steel, far in excess of even button rifling. It also produces a condition where the barrel constricts when reduced in outside diameter such as during threading and chambering, the opposite of a pull buttoned barrel which relaxes. The following link describes how Ruger roto-forged barrels react when custom fitted to actions. It also mentions that unlike most manufacturers, Ruger has a staff of metallurgists to supervise quality control of the initial steel blanks, apparently a critical factor. http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu/me ... arrels.pdf

Also I recall that it is nearly impossible to rebore a roto-forged barrel (this statement relative to the Sako) because the steel has become too dense and hardened during the process, causing excessive tool wear and breakage, and causing unpredictable curving and internal dimensional irregularities of the barrel from relieved stresses during boring.

Roto-forged barrels and button rifled barrels are opposites in that the former are rifled from steel being displaced from the O.D. around a mandrel containing the rifling pattern, while the latter are rifled from having steel displaced along the I.D. by a carbide button pulled through. Stresses in the roto-forged barrels is uniform throughout the blank, while they are produced over a gradient by the button process. At one time Remington used Hart barrels for the 40X, for the obvious reasons.

What this means is that a roto-forged barrel is prone to certain inconsistencies as it becomes heated from firing, even after manufacturing stress relieving has been properly applied. For the big game hunter firing a few shots in the course of a hunt this is insignificant, but for the varmint hunter or target shooter it may be significant. Even button rifle barrels are somewhat prone to stress memory when heated during firing, each barrel being an individual, with the degree of change dependent on characteristics of the original steel blank. Cut rifled barrels avoid this problem as little or no stress is introduced during manufacturing. To expect performance of a factory barrel to be superior to that of an aftermarket button rifled or cut rifled barrel, is asking a lot. I don't think anybody knows why two barrels produced on the same machines can vary so much in accuracy, but they can and do. What amazes me is how well the factories do in producing very accurate rifles at reasonable costs.

[Sagebrush Burns]

The two most accurate rifles I own are a Remington 700VS in 223 and a Savage LRPV in 204. Needed to work on the Remington trigger a bit; the Savage was perfect at 1/2# out of the box. If I had to pick one it would be the Savage 'cause it's ready to go right out of the box.

[Griff]

Gee, I leave for a few days and look at the replies!

thanks to all the contributers... I'm sending this link an info on right now.

I would love to have a crack with the Remington as a comparison.

Anyway, anymore info is more than welcome.

Thanks.