204 Cleaning Ritual

[FireBallGuy]

HAte to ask a stupid question.......but......how often is the general population here vleaning thier 204's? Finally got a replacement for my model 12 FV on friday and I spent yesterday running the barrel in. The old 1 shoot clean routine......8 hours......34 down the tube. I think you should be able to get 35-40 accurate shots before much cleaning is needed. Bought a remington VSF and first impressions are the gun will be good. It does not keyhole 40 grain Vmax's which is good. Used 1 target for the first box of hornady 40 grain stuff and shot a 20 shot group that went 1.75" not bad condsidering I was cleaning in between. Going to be spending this weekend doing more of the same with other factory stuff for now. Any suggestions or comments you might have would be appreciated.

[OldTurtle]

IMHO, you are cleaning too much...When I'm "breaking in" a new barrel, I'll fire one round and clean for the first five rounds, then every five rounds for a total of 25, and then shoot as I normally would... with a good cleaning session at the end of the day..

That is considering that it is a "Factory" grade barrel.... A custom lapped barrel should require even less cleaning...

There are a lot of opinions about barrel break in and cleaning procedures..... at both ends of the spectrum...Some barrel makers will discourage the cleaning process and others will promote it...I'm always a little skeptical about their motives, since they sell barrels and bad advice will promote sales...but I do see merit in cleaning a new barrel to remove any left over particles from the original cutting and machining process...

[Rick in Oregon]

FB Guy: Like OldTurtle mentioned, this is a highly debated subject. I found the best method was to employ the "Sinclair Method", discussed in their most excellent book "Precision Shooting and Handloading", ready for the 10th Edition about to be released. Since I adoped this method about 15 years ago, my barrels stay cleaner longer, and shoot to their true accuracy potential. The book is written by Bill Gravett and Fred Sinclair, both engineers, long-time BR competitors, and the principals of Sinclair International.

I'm told the new book will be out this summer.....it's been a long wait, and is very much worth the price of admission, as the book answers this and many other questions I see posted here regulary. I've been handloading for over 40 years, and still refer to this excellent work almost daily. It is spiral bound, so it also sits flat on the workbench; a must have for anyone serious about precision rifle accuracy.

My custom M700 11 twist Silver Princess of Death getting the field treatment in between squirrel strings of fire:

[surfclod]

When I got my gun I was not aware of any barrel break in technique at all, I just sighted it in with half a box of shells and cleaned when I got home. Just as circumstances worked out I never shot many shells in its early life because the ground squirrels were not out at the time and by the time the spring came I had read that the small bores preferred frequent cleaning. One time I lost accuracy but that was early on when I only cleaned with Hoppes #9, I then learned that I needed a good copper remover. The past few seasons my routine was to go 50 rounds and then clean till patches were "almost good" when in the field and then a really good cleaning when I got home or packed up the rifle.

A couple weeks ago I was at the range and decided to do a 100 round test with my rifle to see at what point accuracy dropped off, thinking that perhaps my 50 round count could be improved upon. (With real measurable paper results rather than when hit ratio drops in changing field conditions). I was surprised to find that after 100 rounds accuracy was pretty much the same as with the first groups shot. In fact the best group of the day was the group made by shots 96-100. The biggest result for me was that my groups had opened up substantially since load development earlier this spring (about 700 rounds ago) so perhaps a well worn barrel is less effected by regular cleaning. This barrel I estimate to have about 3500-4000 rounds through it though I never kept track of rounds fired in the early days. It is still shot an average of .89 MOA for the day, largest being 1.3" but I demand a little better

Fortunately I was prepared and installed the prefit Shilen barrel I had ready. (Savage barrel nut looks hack but darn is it ever convenient!!)

I guess more testing is in order, which is fine as ground squirrels are going to be hibernating soon and I still want to shoot lots. The Shilen barrel with its hand lapped bore in theory should shoot longer without cleaning and clean faster when required but I will have to test that for myself.

[FireBallGuy]

Thank you for your input guys. The gun shaping up to be a good shooter so on the weekend I will be content to get the gun resighted with some other ammo and blast away!! Given the fact the 204 does not a lot of powder I think (after reading what you all have said) that maybe a guy can stretch out the cleaning process a little with this cartridge to say maybe 50 or 60 rounds? Supposed to be nice this weekend where I am and the whole family....guns and all are coming out to do some damage on the vermin population. Should be a ball!! Thanks again.

[FireBallGuy]

This is just the remington factory barrel but it is one of the smoothest ones I have felt in avery long time. Looks like I might have got lucky this time around. Time will tell.

[OldTurtle]

FBG,,, It's not really the type of powder, although some do burn cleaner that others, but the speed of the .204 bullets going down the barrel that causes some of the deposit build up and the heat factor from the friction....

That's part of the reason I don't tend to load really 'hot' loads through mine, as well as the push for accuracy over speed....I also like my brass to last longer cause I'm one of the original 'cheap skates'....

[FireBallGuy]

Nothing wrong with that! That is usually my attitude as well, whatever powder charge shoots tiny groups gets the nod, unless of coarse it is so low as to hamper the point to the exercise.

[MT204]

Good evening
Rick in Oregon mention in a post above about a book call "Precision Shooting and Handloading".
I have searched high and low and have not been able to find either an old version or a new one.
Any idea where to get one would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance
Mark

[Rick in Oregon]

MT204: The book is still not out in the 11th Edition. Sinclair is very embarrassed about it too, as they had planned to get it published LAST year, but it kept getting delayed for one reason or another. I just got off the phone with them, and Bill Gravatt (co-author) tells me because of the new association with Brownells, the new 11th Edition will not be available until sometime next year. It IS in progress, photos being shot, etc.

A brief sentence on the inside cover reads: "A handbook on how to develop extremely accurate handloads for your rifle and how to shoot them". That about says it all.

The best thing to do is call Sinclair, tell them you've been waiting a LONG time, and want one when it comes out. Put your name on the waiting list, as the first printing will be most likely be sold out quickly (800-717-8211).

Once you see the book, you'll understand just how valuable it really is for anyone really interested in precision shooting/accuracy, as it answers about 90% of the questions I see posted here daily. The book is both for someone just getting into the sport, and for those who've been handloading for many years, is written very well, does not talk down to the newbies, nor is it old hash for the more experienced among us. It is a very valuable addition to any serious shooters or handloaders reference library.

[Bayou City Boy]

....Once you see the book, you'll understand just how valuable it really is for anyone really interested in precision shooting/accuracy, as it answers about 90% of the questions I see posted here daily. The book is both for someone just getting into the sport, and for those who've been handloading for many years, is written very well, does not talk down to the newbies, nor is it old hash for the more experienced among us. It is a very valuable addition to any serious shooters or handloaders reference library.

So true, Rick....

Unfortunately, 99% of those who ask 90% of the internet questions daily will never see/buy the book..... But, maybe that's a good thing for internet shooting forums...

JMO - BCB

[MT204]

I fired off an e-mail to Sinclair, here was the response to the book.

Thanks for the email! Actually, the last printing of the book now unavailable and out of print, was the "Book 10". However Book 11 is in the final stages of editing and proofing, and we hope to have it released in early 2010. We will definitely make an announcement of this when it is slated for release.

It covers the fine tuning steps to precision reloading that this company was founded upon. We have added some new sections, and material to the new edition as well. We have been looking forward to the release as well!

Sorry that I can't get one in your hands now, but if you sign up for the "Reloading Press" newsletter on our home page (bottom right hand corner), you will hear the news earlier than the rest, plus benefit from some great articles and product reviews you will recieve in monthly e-newsletters!

Sinclair Support

So I guess I just wait...

[kenbrofox]

B.C.B; I'm one of those that ask 90% of the questions on a daily basis. I will also buy the book if at all possible, but, as good as the book may be it will never take the place of all the experience gained by some of the forum members,and answer questions about things that don't conform to what people expect when they read something. I expect the book will be exellent, but if i could choose only one source of info. it would be the two o forum. Kind regards, Ken.

[Rick in Oregon]

A clean rifle is an accurate rifle. Maybe. Just to illustrate how serious I take barrel cleaning, here's a peek at my old USMC Match Shooters Box I always have with me in the field when varmint shooting. It contains everything needed to clean or tear down a rifle in the field including a complete set of gun screwdrivers, bore guides for the rifles with me, patches, brushes....you get the idea.



Once I had some fool walk in front of my Sako Vixen in .17 Mach IV in the field, taking pictures....I freaked, opened the bolt to remove the loaded round. The bullet was jammed into the lands, so the case came out alright, spilling H322 fine-grained powder into the action and the trigger, putting the rifle out of commission. If I did not have all my tools and goodies in this box, that rifle would have needed to come home for a complete tear down.

It just pays to put together a complete kit of all the needed maintenance items you think you'll ever need. Good insurance as I found out that day with my 17 Mach IV.

[Jim White]

Rick,

I have a MTM case for all of my stuff, not quite as tidy as yours but it has everything I need. I do need to pick up one of those patch catchers though, thet're nice out in the field.

I learned from my highpower days when your're in the field, and you don't have it then one must rely on someone else (thats just not my style) or carry it with you.

Nice looking set up you have there.

Jim