Soliciting opinions....

[Jim White]

about my next varmint rifle cartridge. I figured if I can't get one here, I'm in trouble.

Currently, my experience doing this thing has been pretty much confined to sage rats. For the most part I've used a 17 HMR and 22 LR. I have a pait of 204's that shoot great very well.

My question is, what caliber should be the next one? I'm planning on doing more than just ground squirrel hunting but also ground-hogs and coyottes. Should I go to a 22 cal (22-250, 22-250 A/I, 220 swift, 223 WSSM etc...) or skip over those to the 24 (6mm) cals (243, 243 A/I, 243 WSSM etc...) 6.5mm (ops, forgot about the 25 cals (25-06, 257 Roberts))?

Thanks,


Jim

[Hotshot]

Jim,

Are you going to go custom rifle or off-the-shelf?
I don't like to shoot heavy bullets, because the recoil is annoying unless the rifle is very heavy. Most people don't like a real heavy rifle for coyote hunting. A 24 cal with a 10 or even 12 twist will shoot 70 to 80 grain bullets a long way and kill coyotes very well.
A custom 22 cal with a fast twist will send 69, 75, 77 grain bullets accurately to very long ranges. Makes a good coyote killer.
If you look at the balistic tables for typical factory 14 twist 22-250 or 220 Swift(my favorite), you'll see that they don't gain anything over the 204 except a little energy, and at 500 yards it's not much.
Did you see Jamie Brown's post the other day about shooting 55 Berger bullets in a fast twist custom 204 barrel?
Personally, I'd go 220 Swift with fast twist or even 22-6mm like acloco and try 69 and 75 grain bullets. But this would require a custom barrel.
Up in the swap meet I've listed my 6mm-06 for sale. It shoots 70 grain Sierra hollow points at 3950 fps. Put that on your balistic program and check how flat it shoots. I've dropped deer in their tracks at 600 and prairie dogs at over 800 yards with that rifle.

[Captqc]

Jim,
I just answered that question for myself a month ago and bought a Ruger No. 1V in 22-250. I just couldn't help myself as she is as pretty as a june bug on a hound dogs nose.
Gary

[stevecrea]

Jim,

It seems to me that the question of which rifle may be more important than which cartridge. However, since you already have the rimfires and two .204s, and you may be thinking of larger varmints, then a 6mm, 25, or 6.5 might be a logical step. Two rifles that are on my personal wish list are a CZ 527 in .204 (lefty), and a Cooper Model 52 in either 25-06 or 6.5-06 or Ackley Improved versions.

One big advantage of a Cooper for those of us who shoot quite a bit, is that for the first registered owner, Cooper will replace the barrel for you if you shoot it out. That is worth probably $500 or $600, and, along with Cooper's .5 MOA guaranty, is pretty hard to beat.

A Weatherby Accumark in .257 Weatherby is also on my wishlist.

If you like hot 6mms, consider the .240 Weatherby. But, if you shoot much, you will have to reload. Factory ammo starts at about $50 per 20. The 6mm Remington and .243 Winchester are both great cartridges. Some of my shooting friends have these and they are excellent.

[Ray P]

Jim W (sorry).........How faar do you what to shoot? The cost of components going thru the roof? Shot cost my be a factor??
My standard 6mm rem with an 8 twist 30" Hart barrel is doing real well with 107 Sierras at 1K. H4831/ 46.0/ 107......3125fps. These is not a hot load and seams to work very well. Your 25/06 would also be a sweet heart. I asked a similuar when I built my 6mm remington.......25/06, 7mm/08, 6.5/06....257 ack. imp......yep choices. I'm happy just a thought!
Later and Happy Easter.
Ray P

[acloco]

To pick your next caliber, start with research on bullets.

Find a bullet that:

Is readily available
Is not going to cost an arm and a leg
Has HIGH B.C. (ballistic coefficient)
Has bullet/jacket characteristics that will provide the effects you wish (long distance? thin/thinner jacket for varmints? Twist rate needed to shoot the choice?)

Cartridge considerations:
Availability of brass?
Availability of GOOD brass - Lapua?
Availability of reloading dies - custom or off the shelf?
Amount of powder consumed per round?
Recoil?

As pointed out above, I have a 22/6mm AI that is simply wonderful with 69 gr HPBT's or 75 gr AMax's. The AMax bullets, literally, shred prairie dogs at 400 yards. Will be pushing this round to 1000+ this year (purchased the barrel at the end of the last year). The 22/6mm AI is called "the half mile 22", so it should be fun.

The other rifle I built in November is a 6.5x55 AI. Round does everything a 6.5x284 will at a lot less cost.

Don't worry if dies are not available off the shelf. The cheap workaround - buy a set of Redding Custom Competition dies and order a set of blank sleeves or sleeves close in caliber to your caliber. My 22/6mm AI dies started out as 22/250 dies. The sleeves cost $35ish. An FFL holder can purchase direct from Redding for less $$.

I don't like the 25 caliber bullets available and even the 25/06 starts to die off quick after 600 yards in terms of terminal performance when compared to 6.5, 7mm/.284, or high BC 30 caliber bullets.

So, with the above considerations, the 22/6mm AI or 6.5x55 AI were my choices. Both use high BC bullets that fly flat and retain quite a bit of energy. The 6.5 can and will go to 1500 yards. Could even shoot deer sized game to 1200/1300 yards with a good bullet. Both calibers also use 50 gr or less of powder. Both cartridges have readily available parent cases in Rem or Win brass, as well as Lapua. Both bullets are readily available (cost of 75 gr AMax is $90 per 600, 142 gr Sierra Match Kings are available in 500 count boxes as well).

Of note, both of the calibers that I built might be considered "barrel burners", with using the AI shoulders, it helps to deflect the hot gas against the neck of the brass and not the throat of the barrel.

It may seem that my choices were considered by price of reloading components first and foremost. The end result was, but I just kept studying the issues and developing other methods to work around them (such as the dies).

I would also not hesitate on a 223 AI. Have three now and all shoot rather well. Cheapest one of the bunch is a Stevens action with a factory Savage stainless fluted 1:9 twist barrel that I rechambered from 223 to 223 AI. Shoots everything from 55 gr to 75 gr bullets rather well (Have not tried anything lighter, I have a 204 for that!). The 2000 count 55 gr SP's from MidSouthShootersSupply are $130 ish and fly well to 1000 yards at 3550 fps. I do coat these with WS2 from wrzwaldo (on this site).

[cynergyguy]

I believe I would choose either a 22-250 or a .223 for many reasons but mainly because they work, ammo is available everywhere, componets are readily available for reloading and both are very accurate. I know some of the guys on here love wildcats and recommend them often, but until you have alot more experience as a rifleman and reloader I would stick with the standard calibers. JMHO

[Jim White]

To all,

Thanks for all the inputs. This isn't something I'm going to rush out and do right away.

As far as wildcat cartridges, I've never really thought about them before mainly because I just don't know whats out there. But a 6MM-06, whoaa ... thats a little screamer. As far as calibers go I was looking more toward a 6mm or 6.5mm because it seems thay have the best ballistics. My initial thoughts were a 6mm or 6.5mm on a short action (because I have a target Remington 40x in 308 I can rebarrel). I'll mosey on over to the 6mm website and read up on them.

I do like 223's and I failed to mention that I do have two although both are AR-15 target rifles in a service rifle configuration. One has a 7 twist Kreiger, the other has a 9 twist Bushmaster barrel. They can be scopped but because of the height of the scope on the carry handle the stock weld can be a challenge.

As far as recoil goes, I haven't given that much thought but it is a consideration. In that department its tough to beat a 17 HMR or a 204 and because my AR-15's are so heavy (15 lbs) there's no recoil with them either even with 75-80 grain bullets. Some of these cartridges I've never fired (6mm Remington, 243, 260 Remington, 6.5x55). I'm not against a wildcat or a long action but in the case of a wildcat I would hope the reloading components (brass) and tools (dies) would come with it because I've heard that fire-forming brass and buying dies can be a tad expensive.

I'm not against the 22 cals either because with a fast twist barrels they can defiently deliver down range but I don't believe they have the horsepower of the 6mm.

Thanks for all the inputs.

Jim

[Guy M]

If you've got a .17 HMR, and a .204, why not step up and get something significantly more powerful like a .243 Win, 6mm Rem, or even a .25-06? I've been blowing the snot out of rockchucks and coyotes for decades with a 6mm Rem, and more recently with a .25-06 - both work great and also do a fine job on mule deer:

.25-06, 115 gr Berger at 3200 fps & coyote:


Same rifle, same load, 26" 4x4 mule deer:


Son hammering rockchucks with the 6mm Remington:


Same kid, same rifle (in a youth stock) with his first mule deer, taken at about 275 yards w/one shot:


For a combo rockchuck, coyote & deer rifle, I think the .24's and .25's do a great job.

[Jim White]

Guy M,

I'm looking really hard at the 6 and 6.5mm's. I'm really partial to the 260 Remington and 243 Winchester because I've seen what they're capable of on the highpower rifle range but I've never shot either one of them although, I can't imagine either one of them being that bad in thr recoil dept. I'll have to read up on the 6mm Remington but I've heard its very similar to the 243 Winchester.

One thing (negative) I've heard about the 243 is they're hard on barrels. I've also heard the same thing about the 220 Swift too and thats been proven not to be the case.

Jim

[Bayou City Boy]

If you're thinking in the 25 and 26 caliber range, look at the 257 AI and the 6.5X55 Swede.

The 257 AI is fire formed from 257 Roberts brass and the 6.5 Swede is a factory round as several companies have and currently chamber for it.

Both are excellent and efficient flat shooting cartridges that will work well on varmints with the lighter bullets available, and yet both will step up and shoot heavier bullets for deer/antelope sized game. I have one of each....

The fairly stiff Roberts load I use to fire form Roberts brass to AI configuration shoots to the same point of impact at 200 yards as the load I use in the AI brass for subsequent loadings, so the myth of wasting a barrel for fire forming is not an issue with my 257AI.. And that has been the experience of most 257 AI owners over the years.

JMO - BCB

[Jim White]

Is thew 6.5x55 Swede the same (or very similar) as the 260 Remington? I'll have to read up on the 257 Roberts because I'm unfamiliar with it (although I've heard about it).

Thanks,

Jim

[acloco]

No, not when compared in MODERN actions.

But, you will have to work your loads up with 6.5x55 in a modern action. All of the data is geared towards the Swede M94/M96 actions.

[stevecrea]

Guy:

What kind of accuracy are you getting with the 700 CDL? Have you had to do any accurizing steps on it, such as bedding, freefloating, new crown, trigger, etc?

I like these, and they are offered in lefthand in .243 and other cartridges.

[Bayou City Boy]

To pick your next caliber, start with research on bullets.
.......The 6.5 can and will go to 1500 yards. Could even shoot deer sized game to 1200/1300 yards with a good bullet......

......I would also not hesitate on a 223 AI. Have three now and all shoot rather well. Cheapest one of the bunch is a Stevens action with a factory Savage stainless fluted 1:9 twist barrel that I rechambered from 223 to 223 AI. Shoots everything from 55 gr to 75 gr bullets rather well (Have not tried anything lighter, I have a 204 for that!). The 2000 count 55 gr SP's from MidSouthShootersSupply are $130 ish and fly well to 1000 yards at 3550 fps. I do coat these with WS2 from wrzwaldo (on this site)........

Dang....! That must make a Daisy Red Ryder BB Gun a 400 yard shooter...in competent hands, of course...

Of note, both of the calibers that I built might be considered "barrel burners", with using the AI shoulders, it helps to deflect the hot gas against the neck of the brass and not the throat of the barrel.

I talked one-on-one with old PO about 30 years ago and he didn't even buy that argument after a little bit of experience and research on his own... He told me significantly improved velocity was a by-product of some of his cartridges, and all resulted in less bolt thrust and cartridge case stretching. Beyond that, he thought that the rest of the propaganda might sell his ideas a little easier, but really did nothing more.

-BCB