as a matter of interest

[kenbrofox]

I sold my 204 ruger no1 stainless laminate varmint rifle because it was too heavy to carry very far. Now i can't make up my mind whether to order and wait 2 or 3 months for a Cooper or Kimber, or go for a factory job. On looking at advertisements for a factory one i have only come up with 12 in all of Britain... ..They are as follows: 6 Howa....2CZ...2 ruger and 2 remington. All these are on www.guntrader.co.uk 8 of them are new and 2 used. The 204 dosn't seem to have captured the imagination of many Brits. and ammo is a bit sparse on the ground.Don't know why.KB.

[Rick in Oregon]

Ken: Boy, this one is about as subjective as it gets! Opinions will vary across the board, so I can only tell you what I'd do in your shoes.... And this all depends on what actual models you have to choose from in each brand.

I'd first go for a Kimber 84M Varmint in 204 (claro walnut/blue action/stainless fluted bbl), then a Cooper in sporter configuration (it will be a single shot, the Kimber is a repeater), then a CZ 527 in either the American or Varmint (their varmint is light enough to carry all day and excellent shooters), then the Howa, then Remington, then the Ruger. This assumes all the factory jobs are sporters.

My list is mine and mine alone, others will vary for certain. I've shot every rifle in your list in both sporter and varmint weight models, have some of them myself, and am only offering an opinion based on that experience. You want a carry/walkabout rifle, so pay attention to weight, and I'm assuming for what you do there you also want a repeater, so that may rule out the Cooper, as their only repeaters that I'm aware of are in their big game rifles. All their varmint caliber rifles are single shot, but excellent rifles as we all know. If you fondle the Kimber 84M Varmint in 204, you'll walk away with it, I promise. Mine will never leave me, believe me.

Let us know what route you end up taking, and remember......pictures, pictures!

[kenbrofox]

Hi Rick, would you choose the kimber over the cooper only because it has a magazine or for some other reason? Sounds like your kimber is made from orgasmic material!Thanks very much KB.

[Rick in Oregon]

Ken: I like them both very much, and have shot my buddies Coopers on many occasions. That said, I feel the action of the Kimber is superior in design, but I'll admit that I'm biased on this subjective comment as I'm a lifelong owner/shooter and lover of pre-'64 Winchesters with their controlled round feed and claw extractor. The Kimber 84M short action is scaled down, miniature version of this classic action, and is a proven performer for over 75 years (in Winchester guise). The fact that the Kimber is also a repeater puts it over the top in my book, but remember that's my book, and others may prefer it the other way around.

I have plans for a Cooper in the near future also, but I'll probably always prefer the Kimber for the reasons stated above. Plainly put, they are both top notch preimum rifles, and both come with outstanding wood.

[Bayou City Boy]

I'm sure I'll get hissed at for saying this, but a Kimber is not a Cooper by any stretch of the imagination. All you have to do over here in the USA is go into any Gander Mountain store and take your pick of Kimbers on the shelf... and nary a Cooper to be seen.

A Kimber is a higher priced mass produced factory rifle that may or may not shoot well when you get it home. A Cooper is a semi-custom rifle that will shoot to your satisfaction or Cooper will die trying to make you happy. If you are unlucky enough to locate a NEW Kimber that does not shoot. it definitely will after sending it off to Cooper.

In the past five years, I've bought 6 firearms with the name Kimber on them. Three of them have been good to decent shooters. The good shooters are both Model 1911 clones in 45 ACP. The one current model Kimber rifle that was worth keeping is an OK shooter, but I own quite a few factory rifles worth half the price that will outshoot it.

Like Rick, I am a pre-64 Winchester fan, but they generally come with good barrels. Kimbers don't always. Two of the Kimbers I sent back to the fine folks in New york who returned them and told me they thought they shot just fine....and good luck... Both rifles quickly moved away from my house.

In comparison, I've bought 5 NEW Coopers in roughly the same time frame, and like most owners of NEW Coopers, they come with guaranteed accuracy that will stand up. The only Coopers I've been aware of that didn't shoot in roughly the same time frame had been "home-smithed" and didn't survive the operation well.. I don't know abut now (Wilson now owns Cooper), but Cooper used to repair their rifles that others had "fixed". In contrast, I was told enjoy my new unaltered Kimber rifles when the factory returned them back to me.

So...if a repeater is what you want, try a Kimber and good luck. If a single shot will work, I'd buy a Cooper for about the same cash and wouldn't look back.

I do own one other Kimber (the 6th) that is a tack driver and it is an extremely well built and handsome rifle. The only problem is that it is an older Kimber of Oregon rifle in 221 FB, made by some of the same folks who now build Coopers. The similarities are obvious when you sit it along side of a Cooper.

Good luck..... -BCB

[Lenard]

When I was in the market for a 204, a good friend who works in a large sporting goods store told me what he had heard about the Kimbers. He said there were reports of half a dozen of them being sent back to Kimber. Accuracy was the problem, but he said it was accentuated by the short distance of the threads that go into the receiver. As he said, not enough support for the barrel.

That made me shy away from the gun. Past that, I do not know anything more. I just trust the friends judgement.

Lenard

[Rick in Oregon]

Lenard: That is precisely why I always bed the chamber area or the first 2" of barrel shank on any rifle for proper barrel support in addition to the usual locations. The Kimber is no exception, and cures any perceived issues of "not enough thread in the receiver" also. In talking to Van Brunt at Kimber, it appears any rifle that was returned for accuracy issues was corrected in the same manner that Cooper employes to correct theirs. No voodoo, witchcraft, just back into the shop, fix and return to the owner.

It is true that Cooper goes to great pains to correct any problems with their rifles, that's how it should be. Although I was not aware that they'd also work on Kimbers. Good to know.

But it seems odd that a company that has been making rifles here in Oregon for years, then by change of management/ownership, in New York now for many years, with firearms engineers on staff that seem to really "get it" (their 1911's are the top sellers in the country), that they'd design a rifle with the aforementioned deficiencies in regard to receiver thread issues. Add to the fact that their rifles are often backordered due to popularity. We don't have a Gander Mtn here, so can't comment on their inventory status. I do know that Kimber produces far more rifles than Cooper though, so that adds into the equation. I don't rely on third party experiences, as I've had PM's here and on other forums that give high praise to this rifle from other owners, touting very good accuracy and overall positive feelings in regard to the rifle. Kim204 is one of them, and he seems to not share the views of the nay sayers here in regard to Kimber rifles. I suppose anyone can get a lemon of some sort, be it a rifle, car, welder or a bag of brass. It's the luck of the draw from any factory, including Kimber or Cooper. (Which again I'll add I'm fond of both.) My Kimber 1911 45's are the best shooting, best looking, and best quality .45's I've ever owned, and I've owned over 30 of them in my lifetime.

I'm sure glad I lucked out with mine (Kimber 84M in 204R). The planets must have aligned properly for me that day..... BCB, sorry for your unhappy experience with yours. No arguement about Cooper perhaps being somewhat superior and a semi-custom rifle from the old builders of Kimber of Oregon either. I've also got an Oregon Kimber M82 (22 K-Hornet), and it's a real gem.

Of course the real test will be this spring when I take "Lil Kim" out to the rat fields and really put it to the use she was intended. I'd much rather spend a day launching Skippy than punching paper any day. My varmint rifles spend just enough time punching paper to work up "the load", then it's 98% shooting furballs, as that's what I have varmint rifles for.

Kenbro: Get the rifle that feels best to you with the features YOU want for what you do. I don't think you'd be disappointed with either a Cooper OR a Kimber.

[kenbrofox]

Well, Rick, you DID say this was a subjective issue! Thanks to all for opinions offered, you can't do better than getting several takes on things you don't have much expeience with. Does anyone know if coopers are bedded and floated before they come out of the factory gates? Cheers KB.

[Rick in Oregon]

Ken: Yes, both the Cooper and the Kimber are both factory bedded, and quite well I may add. My Kimber is both glass and pillar bedded, and I believe that the Cooper is as well. My Kimber also has the barell shank bedded for about 2" ahead of the recoil lug the way I normally do with all my rifles, and the balance of the barrel is free floated, as Cooper also does.

One thing for sure, like belly buttons, we've all got opinions!

[Bayou City Boy]

....It is true that Cooper goes to great pains to correct any problems with their rifles, that's how it should be. Although I was not aware that they'd also work on Kimbers. Good to know.

If you are taking about what I said and going where you went with it....that's not what I said. I said Cooper will repair their own rifles that someone else has "butchered" making it better on their kitchen table.... I said nothing abut them repairing Kimber rifles.

As an added point....Cooper will replace a "shot out" barrel on one of their rifles for the original owner. If you think I'm blowing smoke up your skirt, call and ask them. The only way that has maybe changed is if Wilson will no longer do that. When Dan cooper was in charge it was a way of doing business and backing the rifles being produced, even if shot to much and too hot. I couldn't even get Kimber to do anything, barrels or any other thing, on two new rifles I bought that shot poorly. In both cases they told me to enjoy what I had... And I'm not the first person to complain about Kimber barrels. A few year ago their stainless barrels were terrible.. in large numbers... Today it appears to be hit and miss.. That again is another difference between a mass produced rifle and a semi-custom rifle.

But it seems odd that a company that has been making rifles here in Oregon for years, then by change of management/ownership, in New York now for many years, with firearms engineers on staff that seem to really "get it" (their 1911's are the top sellers in the country), that they'd design a rifle with the aforementioned deficiencies in regard to receiver thread issues.

Rick, as you well know, the rifle actions used between Oregon rifles and NY rifles are not even comparable. And as far as comparing a Model 70 with a present day Kimber, they look alike but that is where a lot of comparisons end. And the complaint Lenard voiced is not new or isolated to his friend...

Add to the fact that their rifles are often backordered due to popularity. We don't have a Gander Mtn here, so can't comment on their inventory status. I do know that Kimber produces far more rifles than Cooper though, so that adds into the equation.

Again...you're taking my comments where you want to go with them. The reason you can find Kimbers at Gander Mountain is that they are a factory mass produced rifle that is available about anywhere through distributors or direct company purchase. Cooper rifles are either built and sent to their own chosen designated dealers (no distributor involved) or they are a special order item for individuals. It has nothing to do with how many rifles anyone makes. It is the difference between any mass produced rifle available through distributors, however, and a semi-custom produced rifle. Cooper does not peddle rifles to distributors or directly to large gun vendors like Gander Mountain as most mass produced rifle maker do. They market their rifles through hand picked vendors who carry Cooper inventory.

I do know of one company that buys directly from Cooper - Scheels Sporting Goods - but the rifles they sell are slight market modifications from the regular Cooper line and the serial number on the Copper rifles they sell is prefixed with the word "Scheels" to show they are not the mail line Coopers. The main difference is in grade of wood on different models. For example, the Scheels rifle that has the Montana Varmint stock design is a lesser grade of walnut than you would find on a Cooper Montana Varmint model sold through one fo their designated vendors.

As for back orders, come visit me and I'll show you 50 Kimbers in one day, and I know in one dealer's case they do not sell well because of the price attached...

No arguement about Cooper perhaps being somewhat superior and a semi-custom rifle from the old builders of Kimber of Oregon either. I've also got an Oregon Kimber M82 (22 K-Hornet), and it's a real gem.

Are you finally admitting that a present day Kimber is perhaps not a Cooper in quality? In appearance, a present day Kimber looks nothing like a Cooper... A Kimber of Oregon rifle does however, simply because Dan Cooper and a few other former Kimber of Oregon employees took some of the K of O design features and incorporated them into the Cooper rifle after they left K of O. The NY Kimber is just an imitation of the model 70 action and is nothing like the older Kimber of Oregon rifles in total design..

I own both makes of rifles, so I have no need to defend one as being better (because its what I own). I'm saying what I'm saying because I own both and you definitely get more for your money with one of the two for the simple fact that one IS better. And....I doubt if I only owned just one of them I'd be defensive if someone told me something else was better and I could see that it was better with my own eyes.

-BCB

[kenbrofox]

Hi BCB, exellent debate this, but please re-read your own post friday 06 2009 re. Kimber to Cooper. Regards, KB.

[Hawkeye Joe]

Kenbro
You'll have to excuse BCB, He does all his hunting with a keyboard . I'm beginning to wonder if he even owns a rifle. Probably has keyboards lined up in his safe.

[Bayou City Boy]

kenbrofox;

What is it you want me to re-read about my Friday post that has you confused....?

Hawkeye:

You're so perceptive... Did you arrive at your conclusion alone or did you have to rely on help? I actually only own one keyboard, and its not even chambered in 204 Ruger... Go figure....

-BCB

[jo191145]

A Kimber is a higher priced mass produced factory rifle that may or may not shoot well when you get it home. A Cooper is a semi-custom rifle that will shoot to your satisfaction or Cooper will die trying to make you happy. If you are unlucky enough to locate a NEW Kimber that does not shoot. it definitely will after sending it off to Cooper.

-BCB

BCB
I think this is the statement that folks find confusing. When I first read it I chalked it up to a simple typo and moved on. I own neither rifle so I have no stake in this post.

Quite often BCB seems to have an axe to grind in his posts. He may be mad but he's not dumb.
For all I know my posts make me seem like a pompous a$$ or a simple idiot.
Everyone here is offering up their opinions on whatever matter is being discussed based on past expieriences.

[Bayou City Boy]

A Kimber is a higher priced mass produced factory rifle that may or may not shoot well when you get it home. A Cooper is a semi-custom rifle that will shoot to your satisfaction or Cooper will die trying to make you happy. If you are unlucky enough to locate a NEW Kimber that does not shoot. it definitely will after sending it off to Cooper.

-BCB

BCB
I think this is the statement that folks find confusing. When I first read it I chalked it up to a simple typo and moved on. I own neither rifle so I have no stake in this post.

Quite often BCB seems to have an axe to grind in his posts. He may be mad but he's not dumb.
For all I know my posts make me seem like a pompous a$$ or a simple idiot.
Everyone here is offering up their opinions on whatever matter is being discussed based on past expieriences.

Thank you for pointing that out... Yes, it is a typo and it should have read, "If you are unlucky enough to locate a NEW Cooper that does not shoot. it definitely will after sending it off to Cooper.

I re-read my comments in the Friday post like kenbrofox suggested, and could find nothing wrong , but I actually made the incorrect statement Thursday evening

The only axes I truly ever grind is when someone is jumping to conclusions without facts or simply stating incorrect information, as often happens on some Internet forums. if I appear "mad" when correcting mis-information that is not my concern, and I'll not lose any sleep over it. Sometimes some of the dribble that others try to pass along as facts deserves being noted and corrected.

Since some folks get "wadded up" when someone tries to correct mis-information, I do want to point out that my above statement does not include my discussion here with Rick. I'll just say that Rick and I have an understanding between ourselves that has been communicated between us and there are no hard feeling...now or in the past.. Beyond that, the rest of it is no one else's business.

If some of you want to label me a phony to help yourself feel better, that is fine. If I told some of you about my real life experiences, you 'd probably further label me a phony as some of the experiences may not fit into the main stream of what most people do and/or think about. I have no apologies for that and feel none.

I will simply say that I was fortunate to be able to very comfortably retire at an early age and enjoy some of my passions. Hunting and guns are just one of them. There are several others beyond this.....

Occasionally I do work on a contract basis if I choose to do so. This is not bragging, but to put some things into perspective, it’s just a fact that because of what I do that there is not a single factory rifle chambered in 204 Ruger today that I couldn't buy with about 2 hours of my time when working.

Beyond that, my life style and my wife's life style is fairly simple in a suburb of Houston that we enjoy. We choose to live here and it is nothing out of the ordinary. We have three grown children with college degrees who are married and all have successful careers. I am a 60 year old grandfather about 1.5 times over....it will be two grandchildren later this year. The rest is no one else's business unless I choose to make it so.

I am able to travel very easily and quickly, and that affords me some very nice opportunities to pursue my passions that I apologize to no one about. I just choose not to share most of them with the Internet world with elaborate photo fests, etc.

Nor do I apologize to anyone concerning the number of computer key boards I might own. If I want anyone to know that number, I'll share it with them privately and expect it to remain just between us.

Everyone have a nice day. kenbrofox, I hope this clears up your confusion... And thanks to jo191145 for pointing it out. Hawkeye, keep guessing and speculating....it helps to keep some folks interested...

-BCB