700-1000 yard Varmint Caliber Discussion

[Verminator2]

Great post heikki! I was looking for a long range rockchuck/coyote caliber, like acloco. I was thinking the 6.5-284, but after you posted those others I'm not so sure now The 6.5 Creedmoor looks interesting, but so does the 6.5x47.... and I never thought about the 6BR, hmmm Now I really don't know what I'm going to get

[acloco]

Well, the 223 AI barrel is chambered. I spent more time getting both ends to zero than I did rechambering a 223 to 223 AI.

The barrel is a factory Savage stainless/fluted 26" barrel. Of note, it is a 1:7 twist. I checked it tonight....caught be COMPLETELY off guard. Thought this should be a 1:9 twist barrel. I WILL check it again.

Waiting for the stock for the 223AI. Bell & Carlson gold medal tactical is the plan.

I am short scope bases to complete the 223 AI. hmmmm.........need some high 30 mm weaver/picatinny or turn in/windage adjust.

I will post pictures of both....and hopefully targets/velocity/etc by the end of the weekend.

[heikki02003]

First off, not wanting to hyjack a thread or take away from acloco's exciting build, I'll comment on the 223 AI.
Secondly, Verminator2, thanks for the props. I'm glad I got someone else excited about these two calibers. They are performing very very well and are ideal for super long range varminting and winning National 1000yard competitions.
If you're interested in the 6.5 Creedmoor, have a look at this great video: VIDEO
A video like that, with the ingenuity of Hornady (who helped with the 204), demonstrates just how far we have come in cartridge development.

Acloco, I am positive you will love your scope! I have the 6.5X20 version of your's and absolutely love it. There are many times I wish I had the extra power of the 25, and know you'll like your's. I am planing a rifle just like your's for some long range stuff. I have a 1000yard F-class range only a 30min drive from my home, and want to start competing, but also plan to use the rifle for some long range varminting. I contemplated the 223 AI, among many others.

The 223 AI.


Acloco, I think you will really like the 223 AI. #1, you'll get about 100 to 140 fps more speed with any given bullet. Also, the extra case capasity will alow you to push some heavier bullets. I see you're interested in the 75gr V-max. With the 75gr V-max you're looking at around 2900fps.

Here are two loads:
N140 25.5. CCI BR4. 75 A-Max. 2938 fps.
IMR 4895 24.5. CCI BR4. 75 A-Max. 2911 fps.

Secondly, 223 AI brass is extremely stable. Once properly fireformed and trimed to length, you'll have very little trimming to do. The steeper 40degree shoulder resists case growth really well.
Thirdly, you'll get about 2.5 grains more powder per brass. Speaking of brass, 223 should be easy to come by.



That being said, your downsides will be:
Having to fireform brass. The upside is that many people have reported very accurate loads while fireforming, but you're still burning powder and copper to get where you want to be. If you think of it this way, top of the line Lapua brass in the caliber of your choice is still chaeaper than brass, powder, and bullets needed to fireform.
Case capacity is still only somewhere between 24 to 29 grains. Most 204's are shooting about 27 grains. Heavier 50gr and 75gr V-Max's are only behind about 24/25 grains of powder in a 223 AI. This gives only 2900 to 3300 fps velocities. My 204 is shooting 35gr's at over 3700 fps, but admitidely do fade out over 600yards because of low BC bullets. Do the math, a 75gr bullet out of a 223 AI leaves the muzzel at 2900 fps, that is going pretty slow at 600, and real slow at 1000. At 800 and 1000 yards a plain old 243Win way outperforms a 223 AI. The difference between a 223 and an Ackley improved is only 2.5 grains, that's almost insignificant.


Verminator2, I'm with you. The 6.5x47 is just perfect, I am building one. It performs even better than a 243 and even a 308 with way less powder and recoil. Mind you, it was developed to be the King-Pin of long range shooting, and is winning everything. Lots and Lots of testing went in to designing the ultimate 1000 yard cartridge. Below is a very rare photo of two 6.5x47's with both a large primer and a small primer... Awsome. The small primers shot better and that is what is being produced today.
Don't build a 6.5x284, major barrel burners, major. My buddy is shooting one, I saw with my own eyes some very impressive groups at 500 yards. He's at 700 rounds and has already seen his groups open up, even at 100 yards.


Acloco, if your barrel is a 1:7, be prepared to shoot the new 90 grain Sierra's and 90 grain Berger's. A 1:8 shoots the 77gr Sierra MatchKing's nice and the 80 grain MatchKing's. A 1:9 twist shoots mid-range (300-600yards) bullets nice like 69gr Lapua Scenar (.321 BC), 75 A-Max (.435 BC), and Berger 75gr VLD (.447 BC).

Here is your selection of Hornady bullets:


Here is your selection of Sierra bullets:


This velocity table might help you, it's for a 223 and not an AI, but it's almost the same.


Good luck, have fun, and keep us updated! (with pics)

[Verminator2]

Some people on another forum talked me into the 6/284. It's supposed to not be as bad of barrel burner as the 6.5 and it has better bullet selection for launching rockchucks. I was thinking of taking a Remington SPS Varmint in .243 and rechambering it, put a new stock on it, ect. But the .243 is a short action, and someone says I won't be able to load to the lands and still fit in the magazine, do you know anything about this? Good luck Acloco

[heikki02003]

Just to wet your appetite, here is a great 6-284: The Need for Speed

To answer your question, I can tell you that the 6.5x284 fits (and shoots) in a short action, with the ability to load into the lands. Here's a nice one. Will they fit into a .243 magazine? I can't answer that for sure, sorry. My guess would be that you have been well advised. I can tell you that the overall lenght of 6.5x284 is 3.22", whereas an average .243 is 2.70. Maybe someone here with a .243 magazine can take a quick measurement...

Just a thought, but given your interest in the 6.5 or 6 x 284, you might want to consider a straight .284. They have great barrel life. Here is an awsome rifle. Purple Haze. It is a great article to, it explains that shooting a striaght .284 will cost you $0.18 less per round than the 6.5x284, that's $540.00 cheaper per 3000 rounds. And it just shot the new F-Class National 1000yard record.

Here are the dimensions of the 6.5x284.


Here are the dimensions of a .243.

[acloco]

That is a ton of great info.

Of note, this will be the third 223 AI in my stable. I bought a Rem 722 that was already converted to a 223 AI with a 28" Hart barrel. After purchasing a 223 AI reamer, I bought a Rem 700 blueprinted action, Fajen stock, factory varmint barrel and made this into a 223 AI. Both of these rifles shoot 55 gr bullets in the 3600-3700 FPS category with 27.3-27.5 grains of Benchmark.

Postperson is not here yet! LOL!

[Red]

Both of these rifles shoot 55 gr bullets in the 3600-3700 FPS category with 27.3-27.5 grains of Benchmark.

Interesting.

I had a 223AI for a short time and could not get that kind of velocity from the 24" barrel, although, I never tried Benchmark either. I'm now contemplating to what caliber to rebarrel a worn out 223Rem. I love the 223Rem but would like something "different" that shoots a little flatter. The 223 AI was one option among many but was not at the top of the list...I might need to reconsider. The new one would be a 26" barrel.

[acloco]

Red - the 204 Ruger with 40 gr VMax's and the 223 AI with 50 or 55 gr VMax bullets are neck-n-neck for flat shooting.

When trying to compare apples to apples.....

Barrel life
Cost of brass
Cost of bullets
Amount of powder per round
Brass life

...well...the 204 and the 223 AI are excellent.

There are other calibers/cartridges that shoot flat and hit hard, but I highly doubt they will even come within 130% of the various costs or barrel life of the 204 or 223 AI.

[Red]

I agree with that, at least to a certain point. At some range, 300-350 yards or so, the 204 begins to leave the 223AI behind. At least that's what I recall when checking ballistics some time ago. Never the less, I'm not necessarily looking to match or beat the 204 for trajectory or energy, just shoot a little flatter than the 223...or at least match 223 trajectory and burn less powder doing it. The 20Var-Targ was another option. The extra brass work (forming from 223 brass) and cost of dies might nix the Var-Targ?

So many calibers, so little money

[acloco]

I agree with that, at least to a certain point. At some range, 300-350 yards or so, the 204 begins to leave the 223AI behind. At least that's what I recall when checking ballistics some time ago. Never the less, I'm not necessarily looking to match or beat the 204 for trajectory or energy, just shoot a little flatter than the 223...or at least match 223 trajectory and burn less powder doing it. The 20Var-Targ was another option. The extra brass work (forming from 223 brass) and cost of dies might nix the Var-Targ?

So many calibers, so little money

I have a 20 VT barrel (for Savage large shank), brass, and dies. 200 rounds down the tube. VERY accurate and fun round with NO recoil. But, the wind is not friendly with it. Longest kill so far, 500 yards. Just a touch over 18 grains of H4198 and a 32 grain bullet is FUN!

[Red]

Bummer, mines a small shank or else I'm sure we could've worked
something out, I mean if you were talking about selling.

350-400 yards would be plenty.

[acloco]

Just have this barrel turned down.

[Red]

hmmmm, I guess there's enough metal there to turn it, and rethread it without having to set it back? Wonder what that would cost?

What brand is the barrel?

[acloco]

There is definitely enough metal there. The machinist will whine...after centering the barrel, they have to center off of the thread pitch that is left. No different than if they lose the pitch when threading any other barrel.

No reason to have to set it back at all, especially on a Savage.

Not sure what I am going to do yet. Might sell my target action + stock with the 22/6mm AI barrel and the 20 VT barrel (both large shank barrels).

My reason, I can build 3 or 4 GOOD rifles for the money tied up in the target action/stock/barrels. Barrels are a wash price wise....but the action and stock are worth the cha ching!!

[Red]

well, if you decide to sell the 20VT stuff, let me know through a PM.

I'm in no real big hurry. I've actually got other things that are more pressing at the moment.