Remington responds to Primer Cratering in Factory Ammo

[jo191145]

Hawkeye

Seeing as you've been a machinist for 25 yrs let me ask you a stupid question.

Is it in any way possible we're seeing these oversize firing pin holes from any manufacturer due to simple bean counting?
Is it cheaper to drill a larger hole due to less bit wear and breakage? Less machine down time and employees cost due to retooling.

Me being the Cro-Magnon type would much rather drill a 1/4" hole through steel than 1/16".
Ask me to drill a 1/4" hole through steel and I'll ask you to point where.
Ask me to drill a 1/16'' hole through the same piece of steel and I'll tell you to go to the hardware store and buy every 1/16'' bit they have.

Might seem stupid, might be that simple.
Are machinist's as scared of small holes as I? More appropriately are bean counters more scared of small holes?
Do small bits wear faster than large?

Working with steel is not my thing but its the only conclusion I can come up with for doing it.
Unless of course you fall into the Bovine excrement and blindly believe its really Chocolate Pudding.

Now why would anyone have their bolt bushed if cratering is a good thing?
You would think the innovative custom gun guys would have figured out the benefit of cratered primers long before Reminton, Savage, CZ, or any other mass producer of firearms.

FWIW None of my Savages (thats all I own for rifles folks) have any cratering problem and I've been known to run them hot. Except for one bolt head I bought from Midway. Not blaming Midway, as far as I know they're Savage manufacture. As you said though, nothing like what we're seeing in these photos.
I sincerely hope factory cratered primers is not the future.

[Bayou City Boy]

I guess, Glen, that I'm slightly amazed at the horror stories some folks relate about Remington based on my over 40 years of experience with them. I've bought Remington rifles of various calibers since the early 1970's and have never had a real problem with one exception. That was only a few years ago and they re-barreled it and got it back to me in short order after my calling them and sending it to them as they directed. Maybe I used the wrong approach with them. Maybe I should have been a little more macho on the phone...

Any comments I have made about other rifles are also nothing more than experiences I've had. For some folks my experiences don't seem to be valid because I'm talking negatively about something they own. In most cases I probably own another one of the bad experiences I've had too. But since I'm not on the popular band wagon of "woe is me - Remington is screwing me", my comments generally aren't welcome.

I'll just ignore the prod about our current president and where he comes from. I think I understand the intent from past comments... One good thing about Hillary or Obama is that none of us will have to worry about Remington if they get elected and can accomplish what they want to accomplish. And don't expect any well deserved hand outs to increase from them either. They're all politicians. Suck it up like most folks are doing... Gasoline is @ $4 per gallon everywhere. The world economy has caught up with ours and that is conflicting with our "God given" belief that we are entitled to cheap gas. If you've traveled much you'd realize the rest of the civilized world has been paying similar prices for over 15 years.

Maybe I'm different in that I don't sit around blaming any of them - politicians - for where my life is situated right now - economic or otherwise. I played my own cards in life and can only blame or credit myself for my position in life. Its too bad others aren't that way.... Our society as a whole would be a whole lot better off.

As for the previous posters question.... All factory rifles are designed by engineers with a cost accountant looking over their shoulder. That's a big part of why they all produce rifles in this day and age with warts.... And they all have warts from my experiences as I've bought at least one of all of them. Some its just not fashionable to talk about, however.

And for the question about bolt bushing.... I've paid to have bolts bushed on custom rifles and even on a few factory rifles. I did it for looks only and because I could afford to have it done. It didn't make any of the rifles any safer or more accurate. And cratering of primers is as old as factory rifles. Our grandfathers just didn't have the Internet and digital cameras to publicly whine about it.

With that I'm out of here... And may God condemn Remington to the pits of fire it deserves... There....I hope everyone feels better now...

-BCB

[WrzWaldo]

-snip-

Any comments I have made about other rifles are also nothing more than experiences I've had.

Interesting because that's what the other posters you attacked in this thread have done. They expressed their opinions about the experiences they have had. And yet you see fit to attack them directly for their opinion, even though their opinion did in no way attack you.

For some folks my experiences don't seem to be valid because I'm talking negatively about something they own. In most cases I probably own another one of the bad experiences I've had too. But since I'm not on the popular band wagon of "woe is me - Remington is screwing me", my comments generally aren't welcome.

-snip-

-BCB

Nope, your public attacks are NOT welcome.




Folks BCB tells me that he has "been getting emails" about how people are not impressed with me. Let me make this clear, I'm not here to impress anyone! Brian asked me to come on board here as a moderator, that usually only involves moving topics, deleting duplicates and such. There have been three times I have needed to do a little coaching in the area of playing nice with others. If these folks that have been emailing BCB would kindly direct those emails to Brian that would be great. If it's a serious problem I'll gladly step down as a moderator, I'll still have the access to this site and continue to be a contributing member so it's no skin off my nose.

Kevin

[Hawkeye Joe]

Joe
Drilling very small holes with today's technology is simple. 1/16 is on the large side . If you tighten up the firing pin hole other parts need to follow suit as well. The wide open tolerance keeps reliability up and cost to manufacture down. The AK47 is a perfect example. Our guns are only as good as blueprints and machinist making them. Now if I was machining firing pins and drilling bolt face holes. You bet the pins would be on the high, and bolt face holes on the low end of the tolerance (if tooling allowed). There's a lot that's up to the employees, not just QC people to give us quality rifles. We need more thinkers not button pushers . When the thinker is on his two week vacation, the button pusher takes his place till he gets back

[jo191145]

Thanks Mike
You straightened my thinking on that. I was looking at the issue in a rather myopic fashion I'm afraid.
I guess it could be said tolerances are opening up at Remington. We're just seeing the result on the primer but its easy to conclude there are other parts that might be getting a little extra slop in them as well.
I too hope Remington gets its act together. If Remington were to fall it would have dyer consequences for all shooters whether you ever intend on buying one of their rifles or not.

Kevin
From where I sit you've been of great service and benefit to this excellent forum along with all the mods and Brian for putting the whole show on. Thank You All.
If anyone has been displeased with you (ludicrous idea) why on earth would they PM that fact to BCB (even more ludicrous idea )
I think we need to apply many many grains of salt to that issue.

[Glen]

You can relate any experience you like about rifles you own. Just try allowing the rest to relate their experiences too. Seems you like to use the rosie odonnel approach on opinions. You know the one. The one where she believes all guns should be outlawed EXCEPT the ones her body guards carry to protect her family.

I had a very bad experience with remington & I'm gonna talk about it. Don't want to hear it then skip over it. But I can honestly say that I found out about them on my own. I didn't buy a Savage with the preconcieved notion that I wouldn't like it. I prefer to make my own decisions as opposed to taking the word of a salesman. I also called remington about the feed issues they were having on their latest rimfire. They said there were no problems with it. When I mentioned a 2nd time I heard there were feed issues they told me everything was fine. So I told them I wanted to know about the plastic clips they said>> Oh. That problem<< Lets see if I get this straight now. Near as I can figure they lied to me twice. After giving me the run around on the 204. I guess my bad experience with them is merely due to a couple phone calls & emails that I felt I was lied to in.

As far as me being a whiner in life about gas prices go,, bush is a freakin moronic beady eyed little snot nosed brat that I would gladly slap the taste out of his lieing mouth for him. mccain is a twin & obama or clintion will probably end up shot if they win. And it doesn't matter what state he is from. If he woulda been from OHIO I would have never admitted it. I guess I'll just go back to being a whiner about gas prices the rest of the world are paying because I've apparently run the course on my God given rights here.

With that I'm out of here

For a few weeks anyhow.

BTW-- Feel free to forward any "HATE" emails about me to my email or PM account here. I have broad shoulders & thick skin. Trust me,, you can't hurt my feelings any. I have none.

[Glen]

I've always thought the holes were oversized for easier assembly & so larger firing pins can be installed. Always seemed logical to me anyway. A fella on a 400rd day on a pdog shoot would be mighty unhappy if his pin broke. Just my feeble thoughts on it.

[Bayou City Boy]

Since you keep writing "Stuff" to simply vent your anger at me .... I'll respond:

You can relate any experience you like about rifles you own. Just try allowing the rest to relate their experiences too. Seems you like to use the rosie odonnel approach on opinions. You know the one. The one where she believes all guns should be outlawed EXCEPT the ones her body guards carry to protect her family.

Rosie's body guards must have a real variety of guns in their collection to match whats in my safes based on that reasoning. You're part of the folks who apparently want to see Remington go belly-up to satisfy your needs. I don't want to see any of them leave the market....we can't afford for more of that to happen in today's climate.... I've defended other gun makers for the same reason... Even ones I've had bad experiences with. And I actually own other rifles built by companies I've gotten poor ones from. If you buy more than a few factory rifles today, its gonna' happen. And in fact its sadly not just a problem with one company as some want to portray it. They all make duds.

I had a very bad experience with remington & I'm gonna talk about it. Don't want to hear it then skip over it. But I can honestly say that I found out about them on my own. I didn't buy a Savage with the preconcieved notion that I wouldn't like it. I prefer to make my own decisions as opposed to taking the word of a salesman.

Any one with even a bit of knowledge would have felt the Savage I bought was a piece of junk. I bought it expecting ("with the preconcieved notion") to get the accuracy everyone was raving about. Instead I got a rifle that would not even feed factory cartridges. You probably would have melted down over the experience in comparison. There was no fixing that issue by tinkering. So.... Again, please don't try to make my experience something it wasn't to match your agenda... If I had followed the gun store owner, I would not have bought the rifle. In hindsight, it just so happens he was correct because he understood my expectations. But at the time of sale I ignored his opinion and made my own decision expecting an accurate low priced factory rifle.

As far as me being a whiner in life about gas prices go,, bush is a freakin moronic beady eyed little snot nosed brat that I would gladly slap the taste out of his lieing mouth for him. mccain is a twin & obama or clintion will probably end up shot if they win. And it doesn't matter what state he is from. If he woulda been from OHIO I would have never admitted it. I guess I'll just go back to being a whiner about gas prices the rest of the world are paying because I've apparently run the course on my God given rights here.

LOL....!! Now that's harsh..... Theres always Canada and Europe to make your life easier... Or maybe try North Africa or SE Asia ...they're interesting places...

BTW-- Feel free to forward any "HATE" emails about me to my email or PM account here. I have broad shoulders & thick skin. Trust me,, you can't hurt my feelings any. I have none.

You need to turn off the paranoia button and chill a little... They were just a couple of e-mails that recognized what I was saying wasn't threatening to the whole world as it got interpreted here..... One guy gets a little paranoid and it seems to spread...

-BCB

[Glen]

I'm not venting at you. You just seem to always think everything is about you. Or against you. There's paranoia at it's finest. I don't hate you. heck I don't even dislike you Hal. Never have. I just relayed my bad experience with remington & as usual,, got jumped on for it. If you read my whole post you would see where I wrote >> Trust me,, you can't hurt my feelings any. I have none.<< Those words are truer than any you have ever typed. So I'll just admit my defeat to the better adversary & take my paranoia ball & go home so no one else can play either. You win again my internet friend!! Just wish I coulda been more of a match for you.