Range Report - 12/30/06

MrPillow · Post by **MrPillow** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:27 pm

Took the .204 to the range today, heres the results. Some questions to follow at end of post.

Gun-
Ruger M77 MkII Standard, Simmons 2-10x50mm scope.

All loads used -

40grn Berger HP
Remington brass
H4895
CCI 400
COL 2.275"

These are the 3 best of the day -

#15 = 25.5grns
#16 = 25.7grns
#17 = 26.0grns

Pictures -

1. - .627"

2. - .584"

3. - .585"

4. - .526"

5. - .366"

6. - .544"

Questions:

1) What would cause the common occurancy of 2 shots very close together, then 1 "flyer" about 1/2" away from the 2. This happens nearly every group with my rifle, no idea why.

2) How long should I be waiting between shots/groups? The rifle has a sporterweight barrel, and its about 60* outside.

3) My barrel is overbored and groups open up after it has recently been cleaned, is there any way to deal with this other than shooting a few fouling rounds through it before I go for groups and rebarreling?

Thats it for now.

Mr Pillow

glenn asher · Post by **glenn asher** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:37 pm

It could be anything from bedding to parallax in the scope (moving your eye from shot to shot could cause it). Frankly, for a light barrelled rifle, that's not bad at all, it looks worse than it is, because of the small little holes! Honestly, I think that's pretty darned good for a sporter, my CZ can barely keep up with that, using it's best ammo. You're just in load development! Some of it will go away after you get more familiar with your rifle, too. Just give it some time, it may come around, if not, check the barrel to see if the stock impinges on it somehow, somewhere.[/b]

MrPillow · Post by **MrPillow** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:39 pm

The rifle came pressure bedded from the factory, think I should glass bed it and float the barrel, or check other areas that might be causing trouble as well. One thing I noticed when i removed the action a few minutes ago, is the action screws were VERY tight. It took me and my dad just to break them loose, at the same time

Could that contribute to the problem as well?

Thanks for the help.

scootertrash · Post by **scootertrash** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:25 pm

Mr. P.,
Have you checked the bullet runout on your loaded rounds?

Mike

acloco · Post by **acloco** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:29 pm

On your Ruger, I would actually free float the barrel AND apply bedding at the end of the stock for a touch of upward pressure.

I have ran across a couple of Ruger's that responded well to this - one was a 270 and the other was a 22-250....both with sporter barrels.

MrPillow · Post by **MrPillow** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:23 pm

Scooter,

What equipment would I need to do so?

The barrel is already floated behind the pressure point at the forearm of the stock, so leave that and glass bed? Or glass bed and remove it?

Thanks a bunch.

acloco · Post by **acloco** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:44 pm

MrPillow wrote:Scooter,

What equipment would I need to do so?

The barrel is already floated behind the pressure point at the forearm of the stock, so leave that and glass bed? Or glass bed and remove it?

Thanks a bunch.

Bullet/case runout - in a pinch - dial indicator and v-blocks. Several companies make specific tools for the job.

For floating...I usually use the business card method - put a business card in the barrel channel, just ahead of the barrel/receiver, so that it provides space for the new bedding compound to flow. And this allows some bedding compound to be placed at the forend as well.

Need to back up a second.....make sure that the barrel and forend channel centerlines are parrallel with each other. Multiple times I have seen stocks (any material - resin, plastic, wood) actually apply slight sideways pressure on a barrel. So, even with a good bedding, the barrels are still being pushed at odd angles....especially under recoil.

In the last paragraph, have seen a rifle or two that shot great at the bench (sandbag at the front of the trigger job) and then shot terrible when standing or off of a bipod - reason? - barrel and stock channel are not parallel. Even bedded, you just kept the problem, not removed it.

I have a Win 270 that was purchased recently...because it would not group. Bedded correctly - yes...but upon closer inspection...bedding was not the problem - the stock was.

MrPillow · Post by **MrPillow** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:57 pm

Acloco,

I'll look into one of the tools for measuring runout in a bit.

The stock doesn't appear to be applying any sideways pressure on the barrel, but I may open up the channel a bit with a sander just to see what it does. If that doesn't improve anything, I'll look to the bedding.

Hawkeye Joe · Post by **Hawkeye Joe** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:49 am

MrPillow
Thats exactly what my Savage VLP did with the 40 grain Berger's.Runout was less than .00075 .They just didn't shoot well.Maybe a stabilization problem with your rate of twist and bullet design?? On the other hand, the 35 Berger's,40 Vmax and 39BK's are all under a dime at 100 yards with a 5 shot group. Don't forget, I'm using a heavy barrel.I think your doing well with a sporter

I would like to see the groups on a 200 yard target.

jo191145 · Post by **jo191145** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:14 am

Ditto on what Hawkeye Joe said.

Before you start messing with the bedding (proper bedding is always a good thing) try some different bullets. I always recommend 35 Bergers.
I have yet to see a barrel that did'nt like them.
It could just be that your gun doesnt like 40's
Some may disagree but in my expierience flyers are usually caused by varying neck tension. Has this Rem brass been fired yet or fresh?
Pay close attention to the "feel" when seating bullets. If there are a few that feel lighter or heavier than the average they usually will spoil your groups.
Until all the bugs are worked out and you know the gun will accurately shoot any given bullet I suggest 5 or 7 shot groups.

H-4895 is a excellent clean burning powder. Using a dirtier powder will cut down on the numbers of foulers required. Of course it probably will also require more frequent cleaning.

It is a sporter so a lot depends on your intended use of the gun.

MrPillow · Post by **MrPillow** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:33 pm

I will order some 35 Bergers as soon as I need more components, I'm running low on .25-06 brass so I should have an excuse =P

Next time I go to the range, I'll reload some of load #17 for use at 200 yards, seeing as it performed the best out of the bunch.

The rifle is just something I picked up with to have fun at the range. It wasn't until well after I purchased it (about 7 months ago if I recall) that I found a love for precision shooting, and I don't have the funds for a better gun so use this I shall. It never sees the field, and is quite spoiled in terms of care.

All brass I use is fresh from the factory. I'm using Redding dies (2 die set), could that be a problem with varying neck tension? I've read they aren't the best dies out there, and a bushing type would be better for neck sizing.

I want to get this rifle shooting as good as possible, and all of your info is helping alot. Thanks a bunch.

jo191145 · Post by **jo191145** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:29 am

As Glen said in his first post, your really not doing to badly anyway.
I've never had much luck making bugholes with the 40 Berg myself.
I know others have but my results have been pretty close to yours therefor I've never put much effort into them. Thier little sister performs so well. If I needed to go beyond 300 yards my story might change.

I was also quite happy burning up factory fodder with less than precise results until I bought my 12VLP 204. Darn that was a lot of money ago.

I like my Redding dies. I still use my standard seater. Never upgraded to a micrometer top. I do not measure for runout though. I did buy a bushing neck sizer to expieriment with different tensions but that can also be done with a standard die with partial necksizing.
If your sizing die is a full length you might want to pick up a neck sizer.
Standard should be fine to save cash. Loads are developed according to your specific neck tension anyway.

I have five hundred older pieces of Win brass all the same lot that vary greatly in neck tension. They have been neck turned down to .011 to fully even them up and they still exhibit great variations factory fresh. I've segregated some and annealed them to no avail.
By seperating them according to "seating feel" I can witness changing POI
Do not seperate them and they become flyers.
They do tend to even up a little upon firing but brass is cheaper than bullets and powder. By sizing just .060 of the neck they become usable but my Hornady brass is still better. The Hornady brass is just a smorgasbord of various lots of factory ammo from the old days.

Sorry for the long post. I'm waiting for the other half to wake up so I can go down into my ammo dump and make some noise.
Happy New Year All.

Ohlsen · Post by **Ohlsen** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:56 am

I think you did pretty good for only a 10X scope. Before you get to far involved I would try a stronger powered scope and them I'd fool around with the action mounting bolts, tighter, looser, than kind of thing..Tom

MrPillow · Post by **MrPillow** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 4:04 pm

I was looking into a higher powered scope, but my father likes the gun the way it is and says theres no need for a better scope. He says if I buy my own rifle I can do whatever the heck I want with it, but he payed for this one so I'm out of luck

Will order some 35grn Bergers either tonight or tomorrow, load em for next weekend. I'll be sure to post the results.

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:25 pm

Mr. Pillow, it looks to me your load may be just a tad light is all. I use 40gr noslers in mine & with the H4895 powder the best accuracy was at 27grs. Actually 30grs of BLC-2 did even better.

Also, while your groups may not be bad, they certainly should be better, even with a light rifle... at least IMHO. So just a little more load testing may solve the problem in other words...

All The Best
Frank