+ P ammo

[sniper model 12]

I have a 1911A1 Springfield stainless in 45ACP and an XD Service in the same caliber. One the nightstand gun and the other is the carry piece.

I purchased 2 boxes of Hornady TAP ammo before I heard about the extra punch that those rounds issue to the firearm. I spoke briefly with Springfield who assured me that the 1911 could handle the ammo, and the XD s h o u l d be okay due to a fully supported ramp and barrel.

What do you all think? I'm looking for a second opinon from all of you "gun doctors" out there.

I wont be shooting this ammo daily, its for the defense of course, but I need to know that when I do a few practice rounds that my financial investments won't bust, sending me to the store buying a set of replacement parts.
Thank you

[Rick in Oregon]

sm12: If the manufacturer sez it's okay for occasional use, then take that under advisement. However in all the time I've been associated with the .45ACP, I've never seen any need for +P ammo; the factory stuff marked for "personal defense" is hot enough for anything we'd ever encounter. Besides, consider the standard military Ball Ammo (230gr FMJ)....seems to have worked purdy dang well for almost 100 years now......

[sniper model 12]

RIO: I tested a few rounds through the 1911 and they worked like advertised. When shot in the dark, the muzzle flash was near non-existant and recoil was super light.

I agree that "regular" defense ammo is sufficient enough to handle the encounters that might occur in our every day. I wonder what is the need for +P ammo?

What appealed to me was the 461+ foot pounds of punch! Granted, the Federal Hydrashock is kickin' out 421+ which is a "regular" round. I don't think the dude on the receiving end of either shot will be able to tell the difference.

I also bought a couple of boxes of the new Federal 165gr EFMJ 45ACP that knocks around 476 ft/lbs. The EFMJ stands for Expanding Full Metal Jacket. They're suppose to be "regular" ammo. http://www.federalpremium.com/products/ ... spx?id=403

I'm always looking to try something new. Ball ammo is a proven item and will always be in my ammo box.. . next to the Federal Hydrashock, Hornady TAP FPD, Federal EFMJ, and Winchester Super X Silvertips.

[OldTurtle]

If you are considering any ammo for home defense, the degree of muzzle flash is probably more important than a few pounds of energy...or fps of velocity as 'night blindness' is not a good thing in low light conditions..

When we were changing calibers and the relative ammo on the PD, that was one of our primary concerns since so many of our officers were working in low ambient light conditions.... even the day shift officers when having to search buildings that were closed and alarms had gone off..

Speaking of "Home/Personal Defense items, I picked up a Sig 2022 9mm today and am eager to get it to the range on Friday (heavy rain tomorrow)....

[TONK]

Sniper, I will only say, that in a combat situation the extra power can be a plus, however it may be more than you or anyone else can handle, thus your accuracy might become infringed upon. The other issue would be something another poster brought up and that is muzzle flash, especially at night in the near dark conditions.

I load my Glock model 21-SF with 230 grain FMJ bullets and call it good to go! This combination as Rick has stated has been used in 2 world wars, Korea, Viet Nam and dozens of other military encounters with great success. Now when I was carrying my Kimber, I also used 230grn. FMJ ammo and I never thought about using anything else.

[sniper model 12]

I just found some Golden Saber +P that is suppose to put out 534 ft/lbs of muzzle energy of course in a .45!

I find all of this +P stuff interesting. Like you all have said, FMJ "ball amml" has worked, why use something different? I dunno...

My accuracy with the TAP was a little off at 25 yds, but I could still hit a center mass with the 1911. I haven't put any super hot ammo through the XD as it is still "new" with less than a hundred rounds through it. It seems to prefer round nose and hydrashocks.

All being equal, I'll buy a couple of boxes here and there. . . .ya never know when ya might need something with a little extra hmmf.

[acloco]

The FIRST rule of personal defense....use the weapon/caliber that YOU shoot accurately.

Too many people get caught up with +P, grips, sites, caliber, etc.

When something bad happens, it is going to be close and quick. You won't be using your sites, it will be instinct point and shoot.

Learn and practice how to double tap on the move and hit the target.

Of the several hundred people that have taken the CCW class from me, this is the most often asked questions (which caliber and what bullet).

Talking about something and seeing something in hand are two different things. So, I collected several specimens of expended bullets from the range. Care to guess which bullet style actually performs the best, in terms of retained expansion?

[Rick in Oregon]

acloco: Common wisdom right now would say "Gold Dot", but tell us what you found in that regard.......

[Jim White]

I'd be interested in hearing too. I have Federal Hydroshocks, PMC Starfire, Remigton Gold Sabre and the ole' Black Talon.

Jim

[acloco]

Lead Wadcutter. Round or flatnose.

Have found some from 357/38, 44, and 45 calibers. These stay together but expand to +40%.

Of note, these were NOT fired at the steel plates, but at the sand bank.

All of the other flavors tend to not stay together or are only deformed.

Next time you are at the range, take a peak for yourself.

I have a collection of bullets and brass that I picked up over the last couple of years for teaching aids in the classroom portion of CCW class.

Also of note...for those that carry, do NOT use reloaded ammo. Buy the ammo at your local sporting goods store. YOU do not want to be an expert witness against yourself on the stand if an event happens. "where did you buy the ammo?"...."bought it at Ralph's".....end of questioning on bullets.

[Rick in Oregon]

acloco: I've noticed the same thing here in sand/dirt banks. But remember, animal/human tissue is much, much different in composition than sand or dirt. When you recover bullets from a sand/dirt medium, hydrostatic shock has not been introduced into the equation, and that fact alone would make your findings misleading if not irrelevant, as hydrostatic shock and it's energy is the primary component of incapacitating characteristics when creating the all-important wound channel. Roundnose bullets do not impart any of this most-needed hydrostatic shock as we both know. They expand in sand or dirt, but fail miserabley in tissue unless you hit the heart or brain the first shot. You may want to reconsider your findings.

PM me, and I'll tell you a story told to me by a Medical Examiner in a major US city.

Your advice on carry ammo is spot-on. Just read some of Massad Ayoob's work on this subject, and you'll never carry handloads in your carry piece again, I promise. D.A.'s just love putting guys on the stand for what may be a righteous shooting who are proud of their handloads........

[sniper model 12]

Good point on the reloaded ammo! The CCW instructor for my class briefly mentioned reloading and only two hands went up, so he didn't go any farther with discussion.

I checked out Gold Dot ammo. It looks pretty good to me and I'll have to pick up a couple of boxes sometime soon.

I tried some Winchester wad cutters through the XD, but they didn't feed very well. The 1911 will eat anything! I'll tinker with what I have and see what I come up with.

If the wads stay together better, how will that affect terminal damage? If a bullet fragments soon after body penetration then in theory there will be internal shredding and potential increased damage?. . . .the original Talon ammo. But with the wads, you may have a better deposite of kinetic energy. . . ?

[sniper model 12]

I heard somewhere that muzzle energy can be measured accurately up to 10' from the muzzle. How good is that information?

[acloco]

acloco: I've noticed the same thing here in sand/dirt banks. But remember, animal/human tissue is much, much different in composition than sand or dirt. When you recover bullets from a sand/dirt medium, hydrostatic shock has not been introduced into the equation, and that fact alone would make your findings misleading if not irrelevant, as hydrostatic shock and it's energy is the primary component of incapacitating characteristics when creating the all-important wound channel. Roundnose bullets do not impart any of this most-needed hydrostatic shock as we both know. They expand in sand or dirt, but fail miserabley in tissue unless you hit the heart or brain the first shot. You may want to reconsider your findings.

PM me, and I'll tell you a story told to me by a Medical Examiner in a major US city.

Your advice on carry ammo is spot-on. Just read some of Massad Ayoob's work on this subject, and you'll never carry handloads in your carry piece again, I promise. D.A.'s just love putting guys on the stand for what may be a righteous shooting who are proud of their handloads........

I should have qualified a little bit more. The lead needs to be a certain hardness/softness.

Agree, this is not a blanket statement of....bind lead bullets for carry purposes.

Have shot quite a fiew 45 ACP, 44 Mag, & 357 Mag bullets of varying compositions into varying media as well. If the cast bullets were of the correct hardness, the results were very favorable.


This debate also plays into the discussion of....which bullet composition provides the most knockdown power...one that stays together and mushrooms or another that does not?

In my simple mind....I call it "retaining energy".

[acloco]

Good point on the reloaded ammo! The CCW instructor for my class briefly mentioned reloading and only two hands went up, so he didn't go any farther with discussion.

I checked out Gold Dot ammo. It looks pretty good to me and I'll have to pick up a couple of boxes sometime soon.

I tried some Winchester wad cutters through the XD, but they didn't feed very well. The 1911 will eat anything! I'll tinker with what I have and see what I come up with.

If the wads stay together better, how will that affect terminal damage? If a bullet fragments soon after body penetration then in theory there will be internal shredding and potential increased damage?. . . .the original Talon ammo. But with the wads, you may have a better deposite of kinetic energy. . . ?

You actually have LOTS of questions in there, some you did not state specifically.

What would the ideal "stopper" bullet do (please copy and paste this list to add to it)

1: Expend the highest amount of energy on the subject possible
2: Expand at a controlled rate
3: Ability to penetrate clothing, even multiple layers
4: Ability to retain bullet mass after penetrating clothing
5: Ability to penetrate and break bone

Personally, I want a caliber/bullet that will knock the assailant off their feet and knock the wind/life out of them. If I had to pull my weapon, something bad is happening, and I am protecting myself. The threat needs to end NOW.