SmallCaliberCentral

Got me a 12FCV in .204 several years ago, and it shoots great, but only with factory ammo. With Hornady factory 40gr loads, I get an ES of 21 and half inch groups. With my handloaded 40gr VMAXs in Hornady brass, I get half inch groups, but I get ES numbers in the hundreds. That was with CFE223 and CCI400 primers. Today I switched to 39gr BKs and Rem 7.5s just to see what would happen, kept the CFE charges about the same. Groups opened up to 3/4 to 1 inch, ES numbers stayed pretty huge.

I got off track there, what I came to ask was two things:

When I load to a COAL of 2.260, I still have like 1/8 to 1/4 inch of room in my magazine. Can I load longer? I don't want to feed them in singly by hand, want to make sure they'll feed from the mag.

I get primer cratering pretty early on my ladders. Thought I'd read somewhere that Savages are known for that, but I don't recall. Anyone know?

Thanks.

ThaDoubleJ wrote:
I got off track there, what I came to ask was two things:

When I load to a COAL of 2.260, I still have like 1/8 to 1/4 inch of room in my magazine. Can I load longer? I don't want to feed them in singly by hand, want to make sure they'll feed from the mag.

I get primer cratering pretty early on my ladders. Thought I'd read somewhere that Savages are known for that, but I don't recall. Anyone know?

Thanks.

My savage 204 also crators my primers long before I get any other type of pressure sign. Doesn't happen on my larger caliber savage rifles, but does happen on the 204 ruger and 223 rem. I stopped using primers as an indication of pressure and use the expansion of the base of the brass as my pressure indicator. To get good data, I use a .00005" resolution micrometer. Cratered primer doesn't mean over pressure for savage rifles.

IMO, there is nothing sacred about 2.260" length. As long as the round fits in the mag and feeds in nicely which you can test, go to whatever length gives you best accuracy weather that is longer or shorter than 2.260". You will likely find a seating depth that will reduce your groups in half.

So what COAL are people having luck with? I don't benchrest, but I need these ES numbers down. I prefer bullets around 40gr.

I also read something here about crimping, wonder if I'm getting inconsistent ignition with the ball shaped CFE. I don't crimp for .223, figured .204 didn't need it either.

if you have access to Tula or Wolf Small Rifle magnum primers give those a try, i switched over to them about 4 years ago and have never looked back, lower es than with the Rem 7 1/2 primers.

I would also recommend changing out the firing pin spring in your savage bolt. I recently had a Savage model 12 LRPV that was suffering from primer crattering just like you are experiencing. A gunsmith friend of mine suggested that i go from a factory 28 pound spring up to a 32 or 36. I bought both and ended up installing the 32 pound spring to start with. This solved my problem immediately.
A word of caution if you do this you will need to reset the firing pin protrusion length so that it sticks out approximately .050 from the bolt head face if i remember correctly. There are plenty of video's available on Youtube that will walk you thru the process. If you aren't comfortable doing the spring install yourself you could always take it to a gunsmith and let them do it. Here is a link to the company i bought the spring from, make sure to select the short action spring: http://www.gunsprings.com/Rifles%20%26% ... D54/dID247

For me, I've never had any problems with firing pin springs on my 5+ Savage rigs. For starters, the .204 is a pretty hot round based on the .222 magnum.
One thing I've ran into is brass sizing. The shoulder gets pushed back too far when sizing, the round ends up being too short for the chamber. The round gets fired. Being too short, the case gets pushed forward in the chamber then slammed back against the bolt head. The primer will back out a little and sometimes get pierced by the fireing pin. Primer flow is obvious at times.
If the brass will re chamber after firing, neck size, reload and go shooting. Or, load long with a jam and fireform the brass to the chamber.
I shoulder bump and neck size all my brass. (except my gas guns) Brass lasts a long time and no issues with primers.
Something else I've learned over the years and FWIW. I'll load 30 grains of powder and the bullet of my choice. (makes no difference what caliber)
Bullet set to a jump. Go up slightly in powder charge and you'll start seeing pressure signs. That same bullet and powder charge with the bullet set to a "jam", will show no pressure and you can still go up in charge with no pressure signs. Only issue with loading hot is you've not left yourself any "wiggle room". You load at 70*+, go shooting and it's pushing 100*+. You end up beating the bolt open because you left yourself no wiggle room.
Big difference is, I single load all my rounds and at times have been known to dump powder in the action area when extracting a loaded round and the bullet sticks in the lands. Load just touching the lands and see what happens. YMMV, Mike.

ThaDoubleJ wrote:So what COAL are people having luck with? I don't benchrest, but I need these ES numbers down. I prefer bullets around 40gr.

I also read something here about crimping, wonder if I'm getting inconsistent ignition with the ball shaped CFE. I don't crimp for .223, figured .204 didn't need it either.

My 39 SBKs are seated 2.361" at the tip. They still fit in the magazine and feed in very nicely.

I don't crimp any of my shells, just another variable that could affect accuracy. I will usually test one of two when reloading with a new die or bullet, if I can budge the bullet by hand or by tapping it on the bench, nothing else it going to move it.

Mikie, I only neck size these, still on the second firing. I'll FL size them once they get hard to chamber.

Toasty, I'll try that COAL and see what happens, thanks.

Wire, haven't seen those primers locally, just the regular stuff out here. The heavier spring just helps with the cratering?

The heavier spring got rid of my cratering problem. The factory spring was kind of weak so it was a big improvement for my rifle. Others mileage may vary, in the past i haven't had problems with any of my savage's so it doesn't necessarily affect all of them.

toasty wrote:

ThaDoubleJ wrote:So what COAL are people having luck with? I don't benchrest, but I need these ES numbers down. I prefer bullets around 40gr.

I also read something here about crimping, wonder if I'm getting inconsistent ignition with the ball shaped CFE. I don't crimp for .223, figured .204 didn't need it either.

My 39 SBKs are seated 2.361" at the tip. They still fit in the magazine and feed in very nicely.

I don't crimp any of my shells, just another variable that could affect accuracy. I will usually test one of two when reloading with a new die or bullet, if I can budge the bullet by hand or by tapping it on the bench, nothing else it going to move it.

Ok, I just loaded a handful at this COAL, I'll try them out shortly. Have you had any luck with VMAXs at that length? Looks like the shorter bearing surface and more pronounced boat tail mean you'd lose some neck tension.

Well that didn't go well. Groups are still at 1", ES' are still in the hundreds, and the added COAL + .1gr of powder gave me a 4K FPS on the chrony, and a shell stuck in the chamber. Tried tapping it out with my Tipton rod, no good. Anyone have any ideas how to get it out?

Anyone have any ideas how to get my ES to something reasonable? No reason to be reloading with numbers like that, might as well throw rocks.

Here's my procedure: Buy Hornady ammo, shoot small groups with tiny ES' with Hornady ammo. Make brass shiny in tumbler. Dip neck in little grey balls coated with a dry lube (graphite probably), then neck size/decap with Redding dies. Clean primer pocket. Put primer in. Measure CFE223 from RCBS chargemaster into brass. Seat bullet with Redding seating die. Shoot meh sized groups with horrible ES numbers.

I would try a different powder if your rifle shoots VMaxs OK. I load 39 grain Sierra Blitzkings, Rem 7 1/2BR primers and H4895 powder in my two 204 Savages with great accuracy. My Savages are more accurate at 26.0 grains of H4895 powder, which is about 1 1/2 grains under max load.Try seating your bullets out longer. I load my Blitzkings out to an over all length of 2.414 in both my Savages. There are a lot of rifles that shoot the Sierra bullets more accurately than the VMax. My brother's groups almost dropped in half by switching to Blitzkings. Every rifle is different and you need to find what YOUR rifle likes best. Happy shooting!

A bit late to the party I see, but here are a few tips for you.
I love CFE in my Predator. My accuracy load has atrocious ES numbers, something like 110fps. But is a bugholer out to 200 yards.
The same results showed true with MZ5's rifle, so don't just discard one with "bad" numbers.
Also depending on the lot and timing with the CFE & data. Hodgdon has sold 2 distinctly different powder lots under the same name. Early on it would appear by testing, that they simply sold surplussed WC842, whereas now something is very different. I suspect that it was surplussed due to the development of 842 for the militaries non-toxic ammo. In any case the shift was very large.

Also don't think that brass or primers can tell you anything about pressures, start low and watch the chronograph. Very carefully calibrated copper crushers report swings on the order of 15-20,000psi(above @ 45,000psi) with the same reference load; between crushers. Very UN-calibrated brass and primers don't magically get more accurate at it.

For the primers cratering, it is certainly possible you need to pull the bolt apart and check firing pin protrusion.

Here is a look at the Chrony reading from my 20 Nitro cartridge built on a Savage model 12Target action. In this rifle i had to change the firing pin spring to a 32 lb spring and reset the firing pin protrusion to get rid of a cratering problem. As you can see it produces very consistent velocity and this was with fireform loads. I was utilizing 39 grain sierra bullets, Tula SRM primers, and IMR 8208 XBR powder. As others have suggested you might try a different primer/powder combo and if you continue to see primer cratering i would look into changing the firing pin spring as i have suggested in an earlier post.

Dang wireless guy, those bullet are moving fast. I'm only pushing my 39gr SBK to about 3700 also using XBR 8208 using 26.3gr. Mind if I ask what powder charge you're using?

those speeds are slow compared to the full potential of the 20 Nitro. I believe that fireform load was 30.5 grains. I have successfully pushed the 39 sierra's to 4,335 fps during testing for that cartridge (there was more room to go, no pressure signs at 4,335). Keep in mind that cartridge is based on an improved BR case. You should see what it does to Pdogs... I just got back from Wyoming last week, i have never had so many doubles and even a triple kill in all the years i have been going out west dog shooting.

Below is a picture of the rifle


picture below shows a fireformed 20 Nitro (left) and a new 6BR case (right)

toasty wrote:Dang wireless guy, those bullet are moving fast. I'm only pushing my 39gr SBK to about 3700 also using XBR 8208 using 26.3gr. Mind if I ask what powder charge you're using?