SmallCaliberCentral

I'd like to start with a definition of terms. Let's not debate the terms, but rather share experiences. In my mind long range varmint shooting is 400-600 yards. 600 and beyond is extreme long range on a varmint and usually takes a very exspensive rifle designed for just those particular distances.
I would like to draw on all of your experience and theories in my efforts to create a long range rifle in 204.
I shoot 2 Savages in 204, one with 32gr bkings at 4250 fps for out to 400 and I want to use my Low Profile with Burris Signature 6-24 for a long range shooter. My load of choice is 39 bkings at 3800 fps. The ballistic table I used shows good potential to 600 yards with the possible exception of remaining energy. However, their is not much energy left at 600 with typical 22-250, Swift or 6mm's with light weight bullets. And I have successfully used these cartridges in accurate rifles for years. And before you jump me about wind, let's define this as a low wind long range project because their is very little long range success on a windy day.
So, please share your long range successes and failures to help me and all the rest of us who hope to reach out for those far Prairie Dogs.

It's been my experience that velocity is king, and bullet weight queen. You pay a price for either.

With no wind, there is no reason that the .204 couldn't hit human sized targets all day long at 1500 meters, though with the bullet weight the damage done would be along the same as a BB gun. I imagine you could do the same with a .22 long rifle.

A basic reference would be comparing it to sniper rifles. In order of distant/killing range would be as follows.

.308 Local Law enforcement.
.300 Winchester Magnum - Early military sniper/today’s heavy urban swat team.
.338 Lapua - secret service/military/cia etc.
.50 BMG - Reaching out to someone WAAAAAY out there.

If just killing, distance can go father out, but if you want spray and chucks its gota be closer in, and if you want vaporization ya gota be real close.

While I disagree with B's assessment of whose snipers are applying the various calibers he listed, the idea is still there. You will need the 39gr BK's High B.C. to get those P-dogs at 600 in even on the calmest day. The 50gr Berger has a higher B.C. but the 204 can't push it fast enough to get expansion at long range so it wouldn't be my choice. My 39's run about 3950 so I get a little less drop than you but at 600 a mouse could cough and blow the 32grainers off target. Your not paying a price in velocity at long range by using the heavy bullet because the 32 dumps speed fast while the 39 holds it longer. My longest shot at any critter with my 204 was a chuck at 420 last week. the 39 killed him very cleanly. My other long range shooting has mostly been for the military.

Two weeks ago with my 204 & 32gr BK = One shot kill on ground squirrel at 465 yards.

A few years ago in Montana, 841 yards on an unlucky prairie dog with my custom Holland/M700 243 Ackley Improved (Nos 70gr BT).

As Old School noted though, the 39gr BK is a better choice in the 204 for any reliable hits past 400 with the 204.

And I also disagree (from experience) with the calibers listed above with their users and uses. No flame, just not correct.

List the corrections and i'll change them. I just listed them as i've noticed in the past, i'm no where near an expert. More of a jack of all trades, a master in just a few.

BGL: I don't feel this is related to this forum, but let's just say for reference that ALL the calibers you list are, and have been in use by various branches of the military. In fact, certain LE agencies currently employ all those calibers also at this point in time. I could name them, but I've been asked to be silient on these matters.

And as an aside, the .50BMG is not only a LR weapon of choice, but is/has been used with gleeful success on fairly close/medium range hard targets, and soft targets also when "a certain message is warranted".....especially on full-auto.

(But let's keep the forum focused on small calibers, such as the 204, and our varmint targets. There are much more suitable venues for discussions such as this.)

Rick in Oregon wrote:BGL: I don't feel this is related to this forum, but let's just say for reference that ALL the calibers you list are, and have been in use by various branches of the military. In fact, certain LE agencies currently employ all those calibers also at this point in time. I could name them, but I've been asked to be silent on these matters.

And as an aside, the .50BMG is not only a LR weapon of choice, but is/has been used with gleeful success on fairly close/medium range hard targets, and soft targets also when "a certain message is warranted".....especially on full-auto.

(But let's keep the forum focused on small calibers, such as the 204, and our varmint targets. There are much more suitable venues for discussions such as this.)

10 years ago my list would have been more accurate. I'm friends with a few of the local yokals, and it's amazing the arsenal a small town like I live in has. I've seen video of humans getting hit with the .50 at sub 500 meters, and it perty much looks like a parie dog getting hit by a .204 at 200 meters.

Getting back on topic the list was more of "pick a round for what your doing" Those rounds are chosen for killing humans, the farther out you go, the larger caliber you use. Just for now assume the target is not standing behind a concrete wall 100 meters away, just distance.

I know Hotshot doesn't want to factor in wind, but there is no way around it, you have to factor wind. It's all part of the game, and it's unavoidable. The farther out you go, the more time the bullet is affected by wind, and the lighter the bullet, the more it gets pushed around. Even a 40gr bullet is going to get pushed allot at 600+, realisticly you'll want at least 150gr to 300gr for those distances. The faster the bullet the less it is effected also. Speed King, Bullet weight Queen.

It's nice having dual purpose guns, but in reality the .204 was made for one thing; killing small animals at medium range with spectacular results CHEAPLY. I mean really, who just wants to see prairie dogs just fall over after you pull the trigger? Yeah, the long shots boost our esteem and entitle bragging rights, but I'd prefer watching them explode. It's already proven the heavier bullets are good on coyotes, but it's pushing it, there are much better choices.

So, you have two choices for making the .204 an accurate extreme long range gun. Find a way to use 150gr bullets going 3500fps+, or get a 32gr bullet to go 8000fps

BTW, all the statements above apply assuming every single round fired is excatly the same, the gun held excatly the same way, and the holding pressure is excatly the same everytime, and barrel temputure is excatlly the same, and lets not forget about cleaning the barrel after every shot! Consistancy would actully be first, speed, then weight.

I love this sport!

I have made a few long shots at a variety of targets and sizes. I use factory ammo (Hornady 40 and 45 grain, Winchester 34 grain), and have had mind blowing results at 100 to 200 yds. Yes, it does boost ego when I can peg a pop bottle cap at 300 yds with a 40 gr. . . . I get the same feeling with a 3 shot cluster inside 1/2 an inch at 100 yds.

My longest shot is 300 yds with all sorts of things hanging in the wind to attempt to compensate for drift. I found that the cap is as easy to hit as the entire bottle. I know my rifle and I know myself and I know how to make both work together effectively.

gear: Savage mod 12 single shot, Leupold 3-9x40, harris bipod, pepsi bottles, Nikon binocs. . . . and lots of patience.

Anything is possible if you make it possible.

my 2 cents

Thanks for input guys, I hope to get some more. Having lived in Eastern Montana and Wyoming I do know a little about wind. If some of you haven't been to those parts of the world, the wind has been known to blow in those areas. I shoot prairie dogs alot. And I have custom custom rifles in wildcat calibers that do very well to 700 yards and some unlucky varmints have found that they aren't safe at 800 yards(that's a very long shot on a prairie dog). I used my first 204 last summer with 32 vmaxes very successfully out to 400 with a few hits out to 430. I'm so thrilled with this cartridge that I want to get all I can get out of it. I've learned so much on this forum-it would have taken years to test and gather the info you share every week. After studying ballistic charts at length and reading all I can find on the 204, I believe there is potential for out of the box equipment to be 600 yard effective. If I'm wrong so be it. After all 500-550 wouldn't be a failure. I will keep this forum informed of my efforts to all who may be interested. I haven't quite figured out the intent of BunGhoLeo's input. I do have a rifle that shhots 150 grain bullets at 3500fps, and I don't think that is needed for 400-600 yard prairie dogs.Now a 32 grain at 8000 would be an answer to my dreams. Thanks some more. Hotshot

Rick in Oregon wrote:Two weeks ago with my 204 & 32gr BK = One shot kill on ground squirrel at 465 yards.

A few years ago in Montana, 841 yards on an unlucky prairie dog with my custom Holland/M700 243 Ackley Improved (Nos 70gr BT).

As Old School noted though, the 39gr BK is a better choice in the 204 for any reliable hits past 400 with the 204.

And I also disagree (from experience) with the calibers listed above with their users and uses. No flame, just not correct.

Curious if any of the members have worked much with a faster twisted, 50 gr., .204 cal, high BC just to get the desired long range effects that niether the 32 or the 39/40 bullets seem to have. For consistant hits over 450 yds. I would think if I were building a gun specifically for that purpose I would go that direction. In my limited experience with the 32 gr. VM and BK 400 to 450 yds. is about where they drop off the table ...so to speak.

skb: Correct in all regards. My hit on that unlucky squirrel with the 32BK was because at the time, I was working over an area of squirrels from around 225 to 350 yards away from my bench. By chance, I spotted this guy standing up in the background of my scope. I dialed the range, allowed 1/2 a rat for wind, and watched him flip about a foot into the air (the energy at that range surprised me).

Had I really wanted to set up for that shot, I would have loaded a 39BK for that range, but again, was surprised at the performance of the little 32 grainer at that distance. It just illustrates that the 39 gr bullet would have performed as good, and probably better at that extended range, and would be much more suitable for ranges beyond the 450 yard mark.

The 204 has become my favorite varmint caliber, and it's performance at these yardages continues to both amaze me, and makes me smile. Efficient, fast, and very, very accurate....what more could we ask for?

I don't think it will be too long before we see faster twist 204's set up for the 50gr and heavier bullets. Todd Kindler is now working on the bullet makers for heavier, and as a result, higher BC bullets for fast twist barrels. The future looks bright for this cool little caliber.

rick - any idea what twist is required to keep a 50 gr. heading point first in .20 cal. ?

Seems like with the 50gr bullet and maybe 9:1 or 8:1 twist barrels the .204 might just put the .223 in the closet?

Until you look at the 223 / 243 WSSM's.


Granted you burn a bunch more powder... 40 grain .224 added for S&G's.

For 50 grainers in the .204, a 9 twist would be required. The WSSM's have a heap of problems, and I would never consider one. Don't think they have much favor now, and will diminish even further as the years pass. The barrel makers however, probably love them, as a guy who shoots alot will need at least one every year!

Here's a link for barrel twist:

http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/ca ... _rates.htm