SmallCaliberCentral

GlennGTR wrote:Has anyone here seen results of the 204 on cougar.Its seems to have alot of energy even enough at 2oo yards.Id only take an ideal shot meaning broadside and most shots here would be under 100 yards.I watched my dad kill one years ago with his 221fireball at about 80 yards.Surely the 204 has more energy and penitration than that 221.

As far as your original question.......

I have recently talked to 3 different guides that are very respected lion outfitters, as I am in the process of planning a hunt. Of course, the question of weapons came up. I told them I had available .223, .204, .243, & .308. They EVERY ONE told me that ANY of the calibers would be acceptable under certain considerations.......(1) I should be able to hit my target in a very accurate manner, (2) It should be a rifle that I am intimately familiar with, & (3) It should be light enough to carry for considerable amounts of time if necessary.

I repeatedly questioned them about the adequacy of the .204 and .223 and they re-assured me that if I was COMPETENT with the weapon it would be of no concern.

The varmint caliber rifles put a very fast rpm spin on there bullets to cause them to fly apart or make them more fragile. A big game rifle puts a slower RPM on its bullets.

Ryan, this isn't the case at all. Speaking in "Industry Standards" the common .204 is a 1:14 twist........308 Win is usually a 1:12 twist........243 Win usually is a 1:12 twist. Even the massive and powerful 416 Rigby comes most commonly in a 1:14 twist (same as most standard factory .204s). The "flying apart" you are referring to is caused by the very thin jackets that most varmint bullets have. Big game bullets commonly have a thicker jacket to retain the bullet in one piece if at all possible.

I'm not going to get into the WMR discussion.......

Not to rain on anyones parade...

I have not seen a 204 Ruger in a 1:14, most 308's I've dealt with (factory rifles) are/were 1:10. I have seen 220 Swifts and 22-250's with factory 1:14 barrels.

WW

WrzWaldo wrote:Not to rain on anyones parade...

I have not seen a 204 Ruger in a 1:14, most 308's I've dealt with (factory rifles) are/were 1:10. I have seen 220 Swifts and 22-250's with factory 1:14 barrels.

WW

I stand corrected. I was looking at Lilja's specs.

But the fact remains (and was my intended point) that "varmint" calibers are not commonly a quicker twist than "big game" calibers. Sorry if I got the specific numbers incorrect.

But I stand by my original statement that The "flying apart" you are referring to (on impact) is caused by the very thin jackets that most varmint bullets have. ( not the twist rate) Big game bullets commonly have a thicker jacket to retain the bullet in one piece if at all possible.

Hidalgo;

I agree totally with you on the "more spin, more fragging" theories. They are just that, and unsubstantiated theories at that..(read BS)

Bullet jacket thickness and brittleness determine how well a bullet expands or doesn't expand. Things such as the Hornady poly tip (V-MAX) assist in this tearing and bullet upset, but it occurs on impact. In a HP bullet, the tissue resistance tears the jacket open for violent action upon impact.

Bullet spin actually causes some bullets to "pencil through" or to quickly begin tumbling when they strike tissue. But bullet jacket thickness and resistance to tearing allows the bullet to pass through....not a lack of "fragging" spin.

The twist rate of the old slow 12" twist M-16 rifles caused a 55 grain .224" FMJ bullet to tumble upon impact because the striking velocity tended to cause the bullet to break in half. The M2 approach with the fast 7" twist barrels was to shoot a longer bullet that had a steel core to keep it from breaking upon impact with tissue and thus reduce the wounding capability of the M-16 round.

Why reduce the wounding capability....? After Viet Nam, countries like Russia claimed that the old M-16 round was too devastating for Geneva protocol. Thus the changes... But they had nothing to do with "more spin - more fragging" by going from a 12" twist barrel to a 7" twist barrel. It took a 7" twist barrel to stabilize the longer steel core 62 grain bullet in extremely cold climates, so hence the faster twist.

Any residual fragmenting of bullets occurs for various reasons (like what the bullet strikes in the way of tissue) and has very little to do with bullet rotational speeds in flight which are greatly altered upon impact. The old Hornady Sx bullets were made with extremely thin jackets which could not hold up to too many RPM's in flight, but they expanded violently because of impact velocity tearing the bullets apart. Not because of "more spin, more fragging" theories....

On the 20 caliber barrel twist...12" is standard. It wasn't too many years ago - pre-204 Ruger days - that old 20 caliber shooters used 13" twist barrels because they worked great with the bullet lengths of the two factory bullets...a 33 grain Hornady and a 36 grain Berger HP. The 32 grain and 40 grain factory bullets came with the 204 Ruger...

-BCB

First off, I agree across the board with BCB above. He seems to have all his facts and history straight on this subject (again).

However......I've got to put in another two cents regarding the 22WMR issue on cougars. A very good friend here in Oregon shoots more coyotes, bobcats, and cougars in a year than most anybody on this forum shoots in a lifetime.

That said, I asked him this week about this 22WMR issue on cougars. Now this guy is a REAL varmint hunter, spends much time afield like we'd all like to do. He can't hunt with hounds at the moment because of a stupid Oregon law voted in by liberal idiots in Portland as mentioned earlier in this post, but when he could, the only rifle and caliber he ever used/uses, is guess what? The 22WMR! In the photo below, you'll see his trusty Marlin M980 22WMR and a nice 125 lb. tom taken not too far from where I sit writing this.



I mentioned the ongoing discussion here on the 22WMR for cats, and he laughed, saying "I've killed over 200 cougars through the years, and 90% of them have all been treed, and shot with my one and only 22WMR, the Marlin you see in the photo". He uses Winchester Supreme HP's in his Marlin for kitties, and tries to shoot them from a low angle, up through the throat.

Is the 204 Ruger suitable for cougars? Of course it is, as long as you choose the right bullet with adequate jacket thickness and place the shot correctly.

Okay, there, I'm done with the subject. The 22WMR is, and will be completely suitable for cougars shot from trees with hounds, period. If you want to tear them up with a bonaroo centerfire rifle, go ahead, but all you need is a 22 Mag rifle or handgun to dispatch them without any fuss at all.

Great post, Rick, complete with a picture of someone with modern day/internet generation real life experience with the 22 WMR round and treed cougars. Maybe it will justifiably lay to rest some of the theories running around that a cougar ranks right up there in danger levels with the man-eating lions of Tsavo or an angry and injured Cape Buffalo.....

I too am done with this discussion....

-BCB

Whew!!! I'm glad that's over.