Deer got lucky!

[Rick in Oregon]

There's some very, very BAD ADVICE in this thread. In 49 deer and elk seasons, one thing I've learned is that you use deer rifles for hunting deer, elk rifles (and calibers) for elk, and VARMINT RIFLES AND CALIBERS FOR VARMINTS! My grandfather who ran our hunting lodge in BC, and a former British Sgt.-Major in the Dragoons, a lifelong hunter from Africa, India, and all over the NW Territories and BC would have broken your varmint rifle over your head if he saw any of us shooting deer with varmint rifles.

Sure, a 22LR will kill a deer, but that's not the point. Any rifleman worth his boots knows this, and will not use unsuitable calibers for game animals. Does the term "controlled expansion" mean anything?

All it takes is less than optimum conditions, or have the animal move slightly just prior to trigger release, and you've got a superficial flesh wound on a game animal to run off. As for "vital hits" on game animals running off, well, they must be very unique animals as Hutch45 noted.

Either that, or you're shooting puppy-sized whitetails. Our mule deer here on the Oregon high desert, or the big mulies we have up in my native BC would be hard pressed to die with a body shot from a 32gr varmint bullet out of a 204. Be smart, use a proper caliber for a worthy game animal and use your varmint rifles for varmints.

Think about this: the 204 is a sub-caliber cartridge, designed specifically for and only for.....varmints. It was never intended for big game of any kind. Our military uses the 5.56mm (223 Rem) in the M16 and M4 carbines, but also realizes that for dependable man-stopping, more is needed, hence the 6.8 SPC and the 7.62 NATO. The 30-06 and 7.62 (.308 Win) have been used to kill men in combat past 1,000 yards, but the little 5.56mm is seldom used much past 300-400 yards n combat, and this is why they developed fast twist barrels to shoot heavier bullets such as the SS109 from the M16 platform. The mlitary knows light bullets are poor killers, especially at extended ranges in small bores. The bottom line is: use adequate calibers with proper bullet weight for the game intended. A 204 bullet is NOT a game bullet, period! Ever heard of Robert Ruark, noted African hunter of great fame? His words: "Use enough gun"....you newbies with two or three deer under your belt could well heed those words before grabbing your 204 Ruger to go after Whitetails. Okay, rant over, but let's try to be ethical about the taking of game animals, okay?

[janneuf]

A 40 grain .204 with a MV of 3800 FPS has 657 FPE at 250 yards. Take the SMALLEST of the calibers you mentioned the 270 win shooting a 130 grain bullet with a MV of 3050 FPS. That combo has 1800 FPE at 250 yards.

Let me see if I follow, are you saying 657 FPE is better than 1800 FPE at preventing "run-offs"? Or are you saying that even though you can hit a crow at 450 yards with your .204 you can't hit a deer in the boiler room at 250 yards with a "big" caliber?

It MUST be one of the 2?

[janneuf]

Rick

I have a question for you since you're a military guy. I have always heard that the 5.56mm (223) is used SPECIFICALLY because it's more likley to owund than kill and it requires more effort, on the part of our enemy, to tned to their wounded as opposed to collecting their dead. Hence, the use of FMJ in military ammo.

Any truth to that?

[Rick in Oregon]

janneuf: Not really, but that principle is a military dictum that says basically that any wounded man must be attended by two other combatants to remove him from the field of battle, thereby removing THREE men from the conflict. But we would always much rather kill our enemy than wound him. If killed, he does not come back to kill you another day. As our George Patton once said; "Let the other poor bastard die for HIS country"...... (Marine training: KILL YOUR ENEMY!)

The FMJ bullet is the result of the Haige Convention, prohibiting the use of hollow point or soft point ammunition to cause undue suffering/wounding of combatants, and has nothing to do with "wanting to wound the enemy".

The 5.56mm came about because of the military's desire to have infantry soldiers carry more ammunition with the same pack weight. WWII and Korea we used the .30-06 mostly, then the 7.62 NATO was designed for somwhat shorter ranges and more carrying ability (ammo quantity). In Vietnam, ranges were even shorter, that fact, and the desire to carry even more ammo into combat resulted in the 5.56mm being developed for select-fire weapons. It is also rumored that the AR15/M16 was partially developed for ARVN forces to use because of their small stature, and recoil sensitivity (I don't buy into that one though).

This entire affair has almost come full-circle, in that the military now realizes that the 5.56mm is marginal for most combat situations, and has developed heavier bullets and faster twist barrels to properly stabilize them as a result. More and more M14's (SOCOM/7.62mm) are being pressed into service in the Iraq and Ashcanistan Theaters, as well as our primary sniping weapon, the M40A2 rifle and it's brothers (all 7.62 NATO). Additionally, the 300 Win Mag, and the 338 Lapua Mag are also in service as sniping rifles, as the 5.56mm is sadly lacking for duty at the normal sniping ranges encountered in combat.

This all translates into the fact that small, lightweight bullets are fine for close up and personal encounters normally encountered in urban combat and for supressive fire at the squad level, but as the military has once again learned, bullet weight and kenitic energy are more important than light, fast bullets for target weights that exceed 75 kilos, or roughly 165 lbs. We have not even addressed the use of the very excellent .50BMG for these tasks, we won't even go there now, as a 750 grain bullet at 2750 fps speaks well for itself, and should not be mentioned when discussing varmint bullets versus proper bullets/calibers for combat or for taking game.

End of story: Most experienced hunters consider the .243 Win the most marginal caliber for big game.....do we need to say more on this subject?

[WHISTLEPIG]

I have had plenty.

[WVrugerfan]

. As far as ethical hunting just about any gun is more ethical than a bow, why dont people preach to bow hunters? .

To say that "bowhunting" is unethical is a total farce. Obviously WVrugerfan has never bowhunted. I have been bowhunting for for over 21 years and a broadhead through the lungs broadside will take down an animal qicker and more humanely than most rifles. I have taken over thirty animals with a bow which range from coyotes, and bears to deer, elk, and moose. If you don't have knowledge about the sport, you should'nt be making those type of derogatory comments about it.

Sorry to disapoint you but I bowhunt myself, thats exaclty why I know you loose and mame more deer with a bow than anything else. I have been bowhunting probably 10 years. I have only killed deer with a bow. Out of the 10 or so Ive shot 3 have gotten away with complete passthourgh shots, and went more than a mile before they stopped bleeding. IF anyone is being true to the eithical hunter standpoint they should take our sport of bowhunting into account. ITs the least ethical of our hunting sports.

[Boomwhop]

You boys are wasting your breath with "Trdboy".If you
check back to Dec. 23 2005 you'll see his first post
on shooting deer with his 204.He didn't get it then and
he won't get it now!

[Ruger No. 1]

WVRugerFan:
I hate to sound inconsiderate but It sounds like you are blaming your equipment for the lost deer. Just because you get a passthrough does not mean you will kill the animal. the same goes for guns. If you are losing deer it sounds like you need to change something. I don't know where you hit these deer, but a deer hit in the lungs will die 99% of the time weather it is hit with a bow or a gun. And to say that bowhunting is the most unethical of our hunting sports is false.

[WVrugerfan]

I dont post on here much but I can say without a doubt the 204 kills deer dead with a head shot. As far as ethical hunting just about any gun is more ethical than a bow, why dont people preach to bow hunters? A well placed head/neck shot with a 204 is ethical, blasting at deer with 300mags knocking off legs and suchs because people cant accurately shoot them to me is whats un ethical. To each his own. But as hunters if we want to be eithical nobody should be bow hunting. Something to think about.

I'm somewhat impressed that you managed to tag me as an unethical hunter not once, but twice in this post. I bow hunt AND I use a .300 Win Mag during rifle season. I could make some short-tempered response about this, but I honestly don't see the point. I am choosing to believe that you didn't mean to categorically call all bowhunters unethical. I'm also sure that you just "forgot" that the .300 Win Mag has cleanly taken more deer than you could possibly imagine. Instead, I'm going to tell you in all honesty that in my years of hunting, I have never lost a game animal due to unethical practices. I only take shots that I am confident in, with tools (bow/rifle) that I am competent in using.

Im not putting down anybody for what they choose to hunt with, its not what you choose to hunt but how good you can use it that matters. My bowhunting remarks were made to get people to think objectively about ethical hunting. IF ethical hunting was everybodys main concern bowhunting wouldn't be a season for us, I have seen more deer/elk mamed or lost with a bow than any other weapon. Eveybody that I know who bow hunts has lost more than 1 deer, all I would say are above average shooters with anything in their hands. For the most part people I have seen try to use big calibers for deer just cant handle them, if you can accurately shoot them thats great. I use a 270 for deer myself but I have shoot several 300's that I know I couldn't accurately shoot more than a couple times. To each his own is the point, if a guy can shoot a 204 well head/neck shoots are plenty ethical.

[trdtoy]

It is not about the amount of energy the bullet has at a certain distance, it is what the bullet does with that energy! It's all about the damage done/wound channel the bullet creates. Trust me, I am a person that does not like to see an animal suffer so I take no chances on doing so. I only take shots that I now that the bullet will do the job under those cercumstances. When I shot deer with the larger calibers and had run offs I was greatly upset. I then moved to the 22-250 shooting a 52-53grn hollow point. After shooting many deer with it with 0 runaways I felt certain that this was better suited for deer than the larger calibers. When the 204 came out I was going to try it out on deer so I started looking for a suitable bullet. The 40 grn berger hp's seemed the most propper for the job with the least expansion and heavier weight. After many tests on expansion at various ranges and through different materials I decided that it would be safe to use on a deer. I then took it to the field and started the testing fase on the live animals. So far no run offs with 10+ deer under the belt! Much different than my experience with the larger calibers. Oh and shooting is not the issue, I have been told that I should shoot benchrest by many that have seen what I can do!

[WVrugerfan]

WVRugerFan:
I hate to sound inconsiderate but It sounds like you are blaming your equipment for the lost deer. Just because you get a passthrough does not mean you will kill the animal. the same goes for guns. If you are losing deer it sounds like you need to change something. I don't know where you hit these deer, but a deer hit in the lungs will die 99% of the time weather it is hit with a bow or a gun. And to say that bowhunting is the most unethical of our hunting sports is false.

Not at all, some deer just dont die like others. Some are tougher and go farther. Im a good shot with a bow and I practice alot. Those deer were shot behind the front shoulder.

Bow hunting is the most un ethical sport we have, more deer are lost and they suffer longer when compared to guns. Its just the truth.

[WVrugerfan]

It is not about the amount of energy the bullet has at a certain distance, it is what the bullet does with that energy! It's all about the damage done/wound channel the bullet creates. Trust me, I am a person that does not like to see an animal suffer so I take no chances on doing so. I only take shots that I now that the bullet will do the job under those cercumstances. When I shot deer with the larger calibers and had run offs I was greatly upset. I then moved to the 22-250 shooting a 52-53grn hollow point. After shooting many deer with it with 0 runaways I felt certain that this was better suited for deer than the larger calibers. When the 204 came out I was going to try it out on deer so I started looking for a suitable bullet. The 40 grn berger hp's seemed the most propper for the job with the least expansion and heavier weight. After many tests on expansion at various ranges and through different materials I decided that it would be safe to use on a deer. I then took it to the field and started the testing fase on the live animals. So far no run offs with 10+ deer under the belt! Much different than my experience with the larger calibers. Oh and shooting is not the issue, I have been told that I should shoot benchrest by many that have seen what I can do!

If you can shoot good with a 204 head/necks will be no problem. IMHO it is a ethical way to take deer.

[WVrugerfan]

Merry Christmas guys, have a safe and happy holiday.

[janneuf]

Trdboy

You obviously have no grasp of physics. Let me try to explain it, if a 204 bullet at 650 FPE delivers 100% of its energy into the deer and the 270 only delivers 50% as it passes through. Two things happen: 1 It opens a MUCH larger wound channel and 2 it still delivers 50% MORE energy than the 204.

On another note, after looking at a crow at 300 yards on 14X through my Nikon I'm just trying to imagine how you could see one at 450 and guess the correct hold-over (~15"). WOW

[Gube]

Sorry to disapoint you but I bowhunt myself, thats exaclty why I know you loose and mame more deer with a bow than anything else. I have been bowhunting probably 10 years. I have only killed deer with a bow. Out of the 10 or so Ive shot 3 have gotten away with complete passthourgh shots, and went more than a mile before they stopped bleeding. IF anyone is being true to the eithical hunter standpoint they should take our sport of bowhunting into account. ITs the least ethical of our hunting sports.

Obviously those three that got away were not hit in a VITAL area. There is no way in heck that an animal can go more than a couple 100 yds on a double lung shot (most expire in under 100 yds or how long they can travel within 10 to 20 seconds.) To say you hit them right behind the shoulder, with a pass through and then travelling for more than a mile does not show me that the bow itself is an unethical weapon, but the person using it made a BAD SHOT. That is what is clear, and to the point!! Animals do not have superpowers. They will all die very quickly when hit properly in the vitals.