SmallCaliberCentral

I've shot several bullet/powder combinations and the Hornady factory 32gr V-Max still shoots the best of anything in my Tikka T3. I was wondering if anyone has tried to reverse engineer these loads? I can compile a list for the OAL and use my bullet puller to capture and weigh the powder charge. But determining what proprietary powder Hornady uses is beyond my diagnosis capability. If I could replicate these loads, I'd quit trying other combinations as these shoot fantastic.

Just wondered if anyone has a guess as to what powder Hornady uses? Thanks.

tpcollins wrote:Just wondered if anyone has a guess as to what powder Hornady uses? Thanks.

Not a guess; all 204R Hornady ammunition produced after June 2004 is loaded with Primex SMP746, a non-canister grade propellent with a de-coppering agent that retards barrel fouling.

Can't buy it (yet), don't even try to duplicate at home. Be happy getting 4,000 fps with stellar accuracy out of any factory varmint cartridge.....I am.

I believe that Hodgdon's newly released CFE223 is the same as the Primex SMP746. But it has not appearantly hit the shelves (Yet). Anyone know if that is a for sure thing ? Bill K

Bill K wrote:I believe that Hodgdon's newly released CFE223 is the same as the Primex SMP746. But it has not appearantly hit the shelves (Yet). Anyone know if that is a for sure thing ? Bill K

I picked up a pound of CFE 223 and compared it to the powder I removed from a few Hornady factory 204 rounds. They look and smell identical.

Without confirmation from the manufacturer or an authorized scribe, how are we to really know if it's the actual same stuff? Don't think I'll be doing any experimenting to that end here. From what I've gathered so far, it's not much of an improvement in regard to copper fouling than what we've been using.

I'd say that if you're pouring rounds down a chrome-lined bore of an AR/M16/M4, you may notice reduced coppering, but for what I do, I doubt there's going to be much difference.....based on what others have found to date. The accuracy reports so far are only so-so too, but I'll be gleeful to be proven wrong.

Out of curiosity I gave Hornady a call and asked if the powder in their factory 204 loads was the same as CFE 223. The guy said "maybe God knows but we sure don't". All he would confirm was the factory powder is SMP746. Hodgdon is closed on Fridays. I'll give them a call on Monday. Hopefully they will be a little less clueless.

Tokimini wrote:I'll give them a call on Monday. Hopefully they will be a little less clueless.

I know what you mean. Typically the person answering the phone at large companies are the least knowledgeable about their products and/or current events. Just don't seem right......

I want to give it a try, just to see if accuracy and velocity are any better than what I am getting with H4198, Rl10x or H4895 mainly in the 20VT and 204 Ruger. I see where Alliant in some of their powders already have a Cooper reducer in them, as some others supposedly do. The CFE223 being a ball type should flow well in a measure, could be plus for it. If and when I can get some, in one of my gunshops, I will just have to find out for myself. Makes our little hobby interesting. Bill K

I picked up several pounds of CFE223 and naturally had to try it in the .204 Ruger and .22-250 cartridges, but not the .223 Remington. So far it's shown some possibilities, but I haven't had time to develop gilt edge loads that compete with existing powders. I did notice that this powder produces plenty of soft black sooty residue. The powder residue did clean up easily and copper fouling came out with a few patches of BoreTech's Eliminator or CU+2 Copper Remover, so it seems to work in that regard. However all my barrels are double lapped custom barrels that have been broken-in and were lubed with Witches Brew Bore Lube before shooting.

I think it's going to be difficult to top Reloader-10x, Benchmark, Varget, H-4895, H-380 and VV-133 with any of the new stuff, but I really want to be pleasantly surprised by something new.

In testing CFE223, I finally found a use for the sonic case cleaner: toss the muzzle brake in and it removes all the nasty crud in the little holes in a few cycles.

When I have time I'll keep experimenting with CFE223, but I'm becoming weary of the work involved in testing every new and great powder. So far I have found IMR 8208 XBR and 4007 SSC to be good but not the fantastic stuff it is claimed to be. IMR 8208 XBR didn't surpass VV-133 in the 6mm PPC, or equal some of the older powders in the others, but is acceptable.

Rick in Oregon wrote:

Tokimini wrote:I'll give them a call on Monday. Hopefully they will be a little less clueless.

I know what you mean. Typically the person answering the phone at large companies are the least knowledgeable about their products and/or current events. Just don't seem right......

Rick, this guy was in tech support for reloading products. Maybe Hornady just wants to keep us handloaders in the dark.

Rick in Oregon wrote:

tpcollins wrote:Just wondered if anyone has a guess as to what powder Hornady uses? Thanks.

Not a guess; all 204R Hornady ammunition produced after June 2004 is loaded with Primex SMP746, a non-canister grade propellent with a de-coppering agent that retards barrel fouling.

Can't buy it (yet), don't even try to duplicate at home. Be happy getting 4,000 fps with stellar accuracy out of any factory varmint cartridge.....I am.

Most consistent factory ammo I have ever purchased - Check

More than I would ever spend price per round - Check

Just to clear things up a little, The "Primex" powder being bantered around SMP 746; is a General Dynamics ball powder; being made at the St. Marks, FL plant. Likewise the "Copper Erasing" compound is a Tin Dioxide that has been in the Win 760 &Win 748 powders for (according to the MSDS I have) for at least 20 years.

After doing some digging, and knowing how the WC's lines run from St. Marks...
I would suspect that you COULD draw the conclusions that the CFE223 is Win 748 "slow lot". Whereas the SMP 746 COULD be considered 748 "fast lot".

Or you could invest the same time and effort into a bespoke load that would shoot better than the factory load. My handloads shoot groups half the size of factory loads, or better.

Chronograph the factory loads and you'll have three of the four pieces of the puzzle. You've got a bullet you know your barrel likes, a jump you know that bullet likes, and an MV that suits your barrel's accuracy nodes.

Pick any suitable powder, load to a matching MV, then tweak the charge weight to adjust for differences in your chosen powder's pressure curve to find the center of that accuracy node. Then tweak seating depth.

Fred_C_Dobbs wrote:Or you could invest the same time and effort into a bespoke load that would shoot better than the factory load. My handloads shoot groups half the size of factory loads, or better.

Chronograph the factory loads and you'll have three of the four pieces of the puzzle. You've got a bullet you know your barrel likes, a jump you know that bullet likes, and an MV that suits your barrel's accuracy nodes.

Pick any suitable powder, load to a matching MV, then tweak the charge weight to adjust for differences in your chosen powder's pressure curve to find the center of that accuracy node. Then tweak seating depth.

the problem is Fred is that you will get pressure signs before you get the velocity of the VMax factories, and/or the accuracy will go south

In my Savage model 16 with 22" barrel, 32g factory Hornady shoots at almost exactly 4,000 fps. Average of groups with fact. 32's is .775 moa. I can easily surpass that velocity and accuracy with several powders without pressure signs in this rifle. IMR 8208 XBR has given me the best overall velocity with 32's. Since this rifle is really most accurate with the 32's at about 3,950 fps, I really don't go chasing after more speed anymore even though it is available. I've killed enough coyotes with that load to know that if I put it where it should be they will never move out of their tracks, and I will have a little entry hole and no exit.