COAL questions......

[WJN]

Hi guys! I am new to this forum and have enjoyed reading some of the posts. I just acquired a Remington 700 VLS in 204. I have done quite a bit of pistol shooting over the years but not much with rifles since I was in the military many years ago. I also reloaded my pistol ammo for a long time.

I bought some .204 reloading equipment and supplies. I also bought the only factory ammo I was able to find locally to have something to break in the rifle.

Now to the question. I have loaded up my first ten rounds with Nosler 32g BT and Nosler brass - 26gr of Benchmark. I did a crude measure of the rifle COAL with a rod and some stops and came up with 2.283. I set up my rounds at 2.26. I have used some of the factory ammo and decided I needed to at least test feed the rounds I had made. I measured the factory (Winchester) round and to my surprise they were 2.21 COAL. They feed and eject just fine. The rounds I made at 2.26, fed and ejected but seemed to be a bit tight closing the bolt. Do you guys think it is likely I may be a tad long? I am new to this rifle reloading so any suggestions would be helpful. I have not fired anything yet but the factory ammo. I was surprised the factory stuff was so short.

Thanks for any help and suggestions!

Jim

[Sth Oz Dan]

Jim, I've got a few Federal factory loads with 32Noslers and 39Sierras. The 32s are 2.26" and 39s 2.25"
2.26 is spec for this cartridge but most single shot loaders go a lot longer - from memory I reckon about 2.35"? due to the long throat. Have a look on the "favourite loads" thread. Magazine fed rounds usually are shorter or they won't fit mag. I can't go past 2.30" with my mag.

Welcome aboard.

[Joe O]

Jim
It would surprise me if you are touching the lands with your seating depth,unless Remington decided to reduce the throat length, that all factory rifles seem to have.On my 204s I can't reach the lands and keep .200 of the bullet in the neck.That puts the COAL over 2.400.I load 39gr Sierra's @ 2.350 COAL.My three 204s are all single shot,(bolt,falling block,and break open)All the 204s seem to shoot well with a lot of jump,and notice the heavy crimp on factory necks.

[Tokimini]

Joe O, do you crimp your hand loads?

[WJN]

Thanks for the responses guys!

I have decided to do a little more testing of the rifle throat before I freak. Probably use the spent case/loose bullet test to see where it will seat in the throat. Another option is the hacksawed case neck so the bullet will slide when bolted. Feel free to weigh in if you know anything about these methods. I plan to put in another supply order soon and considering a OAL depth tester of some type but that would be at least a week off probably longer. The method I used was a cleaning rod with some zip ties as stops and who knows what happened there. BT might have entered the rod tip a bit.

Joe - I am having a hard time believing that measurement was right. If I continue to get those type reading using another method I will call Remington to see if anything weird is up. I am still wondering why the 2.26 felt tight but I will get this figured out before going any further.

Jim

[WJN]

More info - I worked on this OAL this morning and found a couple of things. The previous measurement I did was indeed off due to the bullet tip going into the end of the rod. I tried the loose bullet in the case neck method and could not get the bullet to push into the cartridge when seating the bolt. The maximum cartridge length I could get with the bullet barely in the case neck was 2.40. I decided to plug the end of the rod and found that a cut piece of Q-Tip stem would screw pretty tight into the end of the rod. With this method (same one I first used) and the hole plugged I measured to the seated bolt and then to the bullet tip that was pushed into the barrel with a rod as far as it would go. This time I got a measurement of 2.475 as the difference in the two measurements. This seems a lot more reasonable.

Just thought I would update you guys on what I found. This has me wondering how the Hornady OAL gauge works. I would assume the modified case on the gauge has to be longer (than a standard case) to get the bullet to reach the rifling without falling out of the modified case.

Jim

[Sth Oz Dan]

Not sure a longer case would work - probably have issues with closing bolt if it's longer than trim spec.
Does this gauge require the bullet you intend loading, or is there a dummy projectile?
A dummy could have a longer base to stop it falling out

[RAMOS]

I use the Sinclair Int. tool. Have heard that the Hornaday tool is easier, but not as accurate. Have no idea if this is true as I have no experience w/ the Hornaday tool. I do know that guys have drilled and tapped their own brass for the Hornaday tool. The Sinclair tool does not require this. The main thing is to use a proper tool of some sort if you want a "for sure" measurement. Once you have it, write it down. This will not only help with your loads but, down the road you can keep track of throat erosion. You can drive a nail with a big screwdriver but, the results will be much better if you use a hammer.

[Rick in Oregon]

One thing to consider when using a bullet comparator tool, is that the measurements taken to establish the "kiss distance" at the lands is valid for that particular brand, style and weight of bullet.....only.

If you change bullet brands, say from a Nosler 32gr BT to a Hornady 32gr VM, you'll have to establish the new kiss distance, record it and refer to it for seating depth and throat erosion. Every bullet maker uses a different ojive profile, and will differ greatly from brand to brand (secnar/secant).

I keep a 3-ring binder for each rifle I own. In it are notes such as the kiss distance for every bullet I shoot in that rifle, along with the date the measurement was taken. I also keep all targets shot during load development and field targets to keep track of accuracy results and general health of that rifle. Over the years it's really paid off.

The comparator I've used for many years is the Stoney Point Bullet Comparator (now Hornady), and make all my own modified cases from once-fired cases in the rifle it'll be used in. If you decide to make your own, the lathe is best, but it can be done on a drill press. You'll need the rare 5/16-36 tap, along with a Letter Tap Drill 'P' (.323") in order for the case to fit the tool.



If you are serious about handloading and accuracy, a bullet comparator tool is an absolute must; no other method of measuring has ever proven to be as accurate (at least to me).

(Photo taken prior to replacing my loading trays with CRT alloy trays....the hot setup!)

[WJN]

I use the Sinclair Int. tool. Have heard that the Hornaday tool is easier, but not as accurate. Have no idea if this is true as I have no experience w/ the Hornaday tool. I do know that guys have drilled and tapped their own brass for the Hornaday tool. The Sinclair tool does not require this. The main thing is to use a proper tool of some sort if you want a "for sure" measurement. Once you have it, write it down. This will not only help with your loads but, down the road you can keep track of throat erosion. You can drive a nail with a big screwdriver but, the results will be much better if you use a hammer.

I'll take a look at the Sinclair. Thanks!

Not sure a longer case would work - probably have issues with closing bolt if it's longer than trim spec.
Does this gauge require the bullet you intend loading, or is there a dummy projectile?
A dummy could have a longer base to stop it falling out

Different bullets should have a different OAL so I assume you have to use the bullet you intend to load. Maybe the neck is longer on the Hornady gauge case? The issue maybe the same thing you ran into anyway - the functional magazine length.

Jim

[Rick in Oregon]

[Different bullets should have a different OAL so I assume you have to use the bullet you intend to load. Maybe the neck is longer on the Hornady gauge case? The issue maybe the same thing you ran into anyway - the functional magazine length.Jim

Jim, the cases used for the Hornady tool are just expanded domestic WW cases, nothing more. The tool uses the bullet you intend to load in the modified case. Not sure how neck length could affect seating depth though (assuming proper case length)....have I been missing something for all this time?

As for the Sinclair tool compared to the Hornady.....I much prefer the Hornady, much easier, faster to use, and just as accurate (I own both and have made direct comparisons). I believe personal preference enters here.

[RAMOS]

+1 on the comparator. If you go with the insert style, you can also get an insert (fits the same body) that measures from the case head to the shoulder. Very handy for measuring shoulder "bump" when setting up a full length die. I do like the Sinclair seating depth tool but, it is a bit of a tedious process. I use it because it's the one I bought!

[Rick in Oregon]

+1 on the comparator. If you go with the insert style, you can also get an insert (fits the same body) that measures from the case head to the shoulder.

Good point bud. Besides setting shoulder bump for the 204 and other factory rounds, the headspace inserts for the same tool are perfect for setting up the body or sizing die for proper headspace when working with wildcat rounds. It is invaluable when setting up dies for my .20 VarTarg or 223 Ackley to name two.

Even the multi-caliber stainless hex 'nut' comparator from Sinclair is better than dinking about with the old 'cleaning rod method', and much more accurate to boot. If a guy had either the Hornady or Sinclair comparator, he'd be set.

[WJN]

Jim, the cases used for the Hornady tool are just expanded domestic WW cases, nothing more. The tool uses the bullet you intend to load in the modified case. Not sure how neck length could affect seating depth though (assuming proper case length)....have I been missing something for all this time?

As for the Sinclair tool compared to the Hornady.....I much prefer the Hornady, much easier, faster to use, and just as accurate (I own both and have made direct comparisons). I believe personal preference enters here.

It is very likely I am missing something. I am learning on the fly here. The point I was trying to make is if the spent case I used had a rod like the Hornady gauge to push the bullet forward it would have fallen out of the case (I think). When I seated the bolt it did not seem as if the bullet made any contact and it was barely in the neck. The bullets are boat tails so maybe that had something to do with it. I will defer to your knowledge because I'm very new to this.

Thanks!

Jim

[Joe O]

Joe O, do you crimp your hand loads?

No crimp,just .002 to .003 neck tention with a bushing die.