SmallCaliberCentral

Best group with Cooper 204. I used Benchmark, the test target that Cooper provided listed Benchmark as the powder used. This was the best group I shot out of about 10 five round groups with various powder loads. Every group I shot had a flier that murdered the numbers. Last weekend I spent breaking in the barrell and shot at 100 yards. This weekend I took the most promising loads from the previous and shot at 200 yards. Chronographed every shot. The chrono data didn't reflect well on my reloads. Seemed like there was a lot more variation than expected.

I was shooting 5 rounds and then taking a break to let the barrell cool, long enough to shoot about 15 rounds from my HMR. None of the other groups were this tight, probably the shooter. Did not clean between the groups. The second photo represents what most of my groups looked like from 200 yds.

Welcome any feedback. I am spending a lot of time trying to figure out how to evaluate the loads.

Benchmark 27.6 gr
32 gr V-max
Hornady used brass
Rem 7 1/2

First thing I'd do is call Cooper and get the exact load they used in their test. Get the powder, charge wt., bullet, primer and seating depth.
Also get the torque values on the receiver screws and check it on your rifle.

Try the load they used to save you development time. If the rifle still isn't shooting the way you expect, verify your scope isn't the problem. Then run an OCW http://practicalrifler.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=3 to find your load.

The group in the first pic you showed is pretty decent, I'd say. Should be repeatable. Single fliers isn't all that uncommon and most often the shooter.
When I shoot for group, I find I have to really concentrate on not getting excited seeing 3 bullets go into 1 hole. If I don't, the other 2 seem to find there way to other parts of the target.

Steady rest, consistent trigger pull, controlled breathing, consistent cheek weld.

Just thought of something. Your first shot was low right. What scope are you using? Does it have parallax adjustment?

Using the VX3 with the side focus. I am not sure how to tell if parallax is a problem.

Good scope.

There are 2 steps to adjusting the scope. The first is to focus the reticle with the diopter adjustment. That's the one that turns the eye piece.
Pick a non-detailed object to sight on...the sky or a plain light colored building wall. If there are any details on the wall, the eye will tend to focus on those and make the adjustment more difficult. Now, dial the eye piece until the reticle is in sharp focus. You'll have to look away frequently because the eye tends to adust. Keep working it until when you look back through the scope the reticle is in instant sharp focus.

Next, the parallax adjustment:
Set the cross hairs/dot on a target. The rifle must be securely held or it will tend to move. Adjust the parallax control until you get a good image. slowly move your head in a small circle and watch the relationship between the cross hairs and the target. If the hairs move around the target the parallax isn't adjusted yet. Tweak it until the cross hairs and the target are "locked" on each other as you move your head. That's when the parallax has been adjusted out.

Hope that helps.

Yes, it helps. The reticle is clearly in focus, I have been using the side focus to adjust the target image without any attention to parallax.

Kirk

I am somewhat of a beginner myself to reloading. I get very flustered with those dang flyers too and I gets tons of em, so my heart goes out to you. An article I read (from one of the shooting mags which I cannot remember) suggested that it is generally a problem between the gun and the seat of the shooter that is causing flyers. When I read how Eley researched the variables in their bullets, they found out that even the most minute damage to the back of a bullet can cause a serious flyer. So it makes me wonder if I am causing flyers when I am working at my reloading bench. My CZ 527 Varmint has put 5 shots into less than a half inch at 200yds, but it doesn't do it consistently. Why? I don't know. I know it doesn't do it with VMax bullets. The other thing that just popped into my head is the test target that Cooper sent you may not be the only one they shot. Perhaps they shot several and sent you the best one. There is nothing stating in their lit. that says they don't do that is there? Have you tried Sierra bullets? My CZ prefers those over Hornady, both shoot good but the Sierras shoot better.

jr

I have no doubt that the problem is in the seat. Just can't figure out what it is. I usually blow the last shot in a good group. These are pretty well spread out. Gonna find some Nosler or Norma brass and give it another go. Got 500 sierra bullets, will give them a try too. Have you used 8208? Have 40 rounds loaded up but haven't tested em yet. Next weekend...

Get rid of the Hornady brass and get the Nosler brass. I threw my hornady brass away and now shoot Nosler and now I have fewer flyers. Got many targets to prove it. When your Nosler brass is fully prepped and fireformed it'll go a long way towards those one hole groups. My new Nosler brass shot better than my fireformed Hornady brass. Imagine that!!!

Glad it helped. What often confuses people is the manufacturers calling the parallax adjustment a focus. That isn't its real purpose.

If the grouping problem isn't caused by scope adjustment, there are a few other factors that might be the problem. jrwoitalla has a good point. The base of the bullet is far more critical to accuracy than the tip.

Not sure what reloading procedure you use, so if you already do this, ignore the comments.
1. neck size your fired cases instead of full length resizing. I'd recommend the Lee collet die
2. don't mix case manufacturers. Stick with one. The case capacity varies between manufacturers.
2. consistent case length
3. consistent seating depth. I've found wide variations in ogive to base dimensions in bullets from the same lot. I measure mine and sort them by that dimension. I set my seater for one batch and change it when I switch batches.
4. use cartridge length by ogive instead of COAL. COAL is basically a dimension that will ensure the round will fit in a magazine. Bullet lengths vary just like ogive to base measurements but I find measuring from the tip to be inconsistent. The jump distance from ogive to lands is what's important.
5. clean the primer pockets
Those are the major things I can think of.

As to 8208 XBR ... great powder. It's my favorite.

Have you tried running an OCW on your loads? If you find the optimal charge weight, small variations in loading and components will be pretty much eliminated.

Just caught rutzy's post as I posted this. Yeah, kinda disappointed in Hornady brass. I've gotten some good groups from it but not consistently. I'm using Winchester brass, now, and the groups are more to my liking. Find a brass that gives you what you want and stick with it.

Going FWD, if the problem persist mark that peice of brass that is the flier and set it aside. Try that piece of brass again and if it produces another flier then maybe you might want to take a good hard look at the brass.

For me, I start off with new brass. I full length size it, trim it, chamfer the mouth, debur the flash holes and uniform the primer pockets. If I really want to get picky then I'll sort by weight and then neck turn.

As far as parallax goes, ideally when the parallax is out the target & cross hairs are in focus. Sometimes it takes a little tweaking to get it dialed in.

Don't be afraid to try different bullet/powder and primer combunations and never assume your reloading equipment is error free.

HTH

Jim,

The parallax control "focus" has no control over the cross hair focus. The diopter control adjusts focus of the cross hairs to the shooters eye. The parallax control places the focal plane of the forward optical elements onto the same focal plane as the cross hairs. Some scopes (and I've used them) don't focus as sharply when the parallax is corrected. Those you send back.

I have no doubt that the problem is in the seat. Just can't figure out what it is. I usually blow the last shot in a good group. These are pretty well spread out.

if you blow the last shot in each group consistently then why is the flyer holes picture labeled "1" ?

when i have a flyer it is usually not out that far. only about half inch to an inch. unless i sneeze or something. last shot of group i would say you are rushing the shot <guess> not focused as much.

also i try to label each shot in order ie 1 2 3 4 5 as they hit the paper.

I usually blow the last one, the target above the first shot was the flier. And I didn't feel like walking downrange every shot. Lets see, 200 yds down, 200 yds back, 5 shots... I'm too old for this.

Try to look through a spotting scope and keep notes as to hit location and chrono readings for each shot.

Kirk

Talked to my buddy in Oregon today. He is having two Remington XR's rebuilt by Greg Tannel the Colorado gunsmith that we both use ( http://www.gretanrifles.com ) Tannel recommends shooting three shot groups. He says that three shots show the rifle's capability, while more show the shooter's ability. Okay, that sounds reasonable, as some have pointed out here they usually blow the last shot. I have pulled many a shot, but also experienced many an uncalled flyer - I even earned the Distinguished Flying Cross for errant shots.

Bullets are the most common cause of flyers. If a bullet is manufactured not quite right, it may fly like a curve ball. Drop a bullet on the floor and I guarantee it will leave the group. I was astounded when I began swaging my own jacketed bullets for competition. They were superbly accurate way beyond what I expected. Why? Because each was hand made, every jacket trimmed and measured, each core swagged to size and weight, cleaned by washing, and all operations carried out on the same set of dies. The finished bullets were washed clean, not tumbled, and were never packaged and shipped. Imagine a 7mm bullet that shoots a 100 yard .75" 10 shot group from a pistol, albeit a bolt action pistol, with iron sights! Hard to do with factory bullets, although they are much better these days.

Next is the barrel. A crappy barrel is a flyer generator. If the steel didn't stress relieve perfectly, or has a weird grain structure or inclusions, if it wanders as it heats, or if the chamber was cut a bit off, or the reamer wasn't right, nothing is going to fix it. Following that is any stress points on the action or bedding, if each shot doesn't exit the muzzle at the same point in the barrel's vibration node, it's going to a separate location. There is also a sweet spot in action screw tension, it's a trial and error proposition.

My same friend told me about his new Nosler Model 48 in .204 Ruger. First thing he noticed when cleaning before firing was that the barrel was the smoothest he ever felt as the patch passed through. Nosler uses Pac-Nor Super Match double lapped barrels. He took it to the range and found it capable of shooting groups down in .2's - with a sporter weight barrel! He also said the barrel throat was cut much deeper than the average, and that seems to enhance accuracy! Same thing I found with a Shilen Select Match barrel in .204 Ruger, bullets developed best accuracy seated well away from the lands, well down in the .2's (with Winchester brass no less). Same thing with a .223 Remington barrel I just reinstalled on a Savage action. It is a Pac-Nor Super Match 1:9' twist polygonal rifled barrel, it shot a sight-in group of .206" for 7 shots using Nosler 40 grain lead free BT's. This batch of ammo is in unfired full length sized cases - just primer pockets were uniformed and flash holes deburred, no neck turning. They were cranked out on a progressive press, go figure.

Had problems with one barrel. Checked everything twice. Finally checked bullet runout, it was less than .001". Crappy barrel. So if everything else checked out, it's probably a crappy barrel.

Hedge wrote:Jim,

The parallax control "focus" has no control over the cross hair focus. The diopter control adjusts focus of the cross hairs to the shooters eye. The parallax control places the focal plane of the forward optical elements onto the same focal plane as the cross hairs. Some scopes (and I've used them) don't focus as sharply when the parallax is corrected. Those you send back.

I didn't say that right. What I should have said was generally (but not always) when the parallax is set properly, the target and reticle are in focus. If it is out, the reticle is in focus but the target is-not.

Hope this clears it up.