SmallCaliberCentral

I finished my first ever batch of 1000 rounds to take prairie dogging last night. Actually I have some more to do for a variety of firearms I'll take along, but I did 1000 of the same load for my AR-15. (27.8gr Ramshot TAC pushing a 34gr Dogtown bullet at ~3900fps.) I'd say loading up a batch of 40 test rounds, or 50 of my favorite load is "fun", but I actually found this batch of 1000 to be a bit grueling. It's not work like baling hay or digging a hole, but man... It is monotonous trying to duplicate the same cartridge 1000 times. I'll admit I did have the TV on, but my eyes watched every powder charge, and I checked to see all the cases were full to the same level before starting the seating operation. Consider that in the seating operation alone, I pull the handle three times. I seat the bullet then rotate it in the shell holder as close as I can get to 1/3, bump it, then do the same once more. I read how this can help eliminate run-out, and it's become natural. Still, it takes longer than one pull to seat.

I realized early on that 1000 was going to take a LOOONG time, so figured it would be cool to see how long it actually took, so I timed each stage.
(12) minutes to UNIFORM FLASH HOLES in 100 brass. (K&M 20cal tool)
(4) minutes to set 100 new brass upright in tray and spray them with Hornady OneSHot.
(14) minutes to SIZE 100 brass. (Hornady New Dimension die on Lee Classic Cast Turret Press.)
(35) minutes to TRIM, CHAMFER, and DEBURR 100 brass. (RCBS Powered Trim Pro with 3-way trim head.)
(10) minutes to PRIME 100 brass and set them in tray. (Lee Auto Prime)
(20) minutes to CHARGE 100 brass. (Lee Perfect Powder Measure)
(20) minutes to SEAT 100 bullets. (Hornady New Dimension die on Lee Classic Cast Turret Press.)

That's 1hr 55min for 100 rounds, start to finish, IF there were no interruptions.

Just over 19 hours for 1000 rounds. I bet I actually spent at least 25 hours at the bench for this batch. It made it easier having done the prep on this lot of new brass this winter. All I had left was to prime, charge, and seat to finish them up.

Figure another 20min/100 if I were to uniform primer pockets, but I decided to leave them alone on this batch, so far. On fired cases, I like to clean the primer pockets before reloading, so I may uniform them all later since I'll have to clean them out anyway.

I've read some don't trim until after first firing. I found that the shortest brass in this lot, as it came new in the bag, was 1.837". Much of it was 1.847 though, and I figured I could get better accuracy on first firing if they were all the same, so I trimmed to 1.837". I did another batch of 1000 this way, and found they shrink to 1.832-1.835 the first time they're fired. I wonder if brass starting at 1.832 will ever stretch enough to have to trim again?

A note on the powder charge:
Doing 50 rounds, especially test loads, I use an RCBS Chargemaster to dispense each charge. Doing 1000 rounds designed for prairie dogs, I decided I would accept whatever accuracy I'd give up by accepting a +/-.1 grain charge. I mainly wanted to avoid the extra 20 hours it would have taken to weigh each of 1000 charges. I decided to use my Lee Perfect Powder Measure, the only measure I own. I found that the charges it threw never varied by more than +/- .1 grain, but the roughness of the powder sometimes getting cut and grinding in the movement was very inconsistent. Sometimes it would turn easy, and other times it would grind bad, and turn hard. All I figured I could do was to try and hit top and bottom with as much consistency as I could.

At about 500 rounds, I got really tired of the grinding feeling of the thing, and had to see if there was something I could do. I tried loosening the screw holding the movement together. This only made more powder than usual leak out the side as it turned. By usual, I mean I've read it's normal for these measures to leak a little, you just have to be careful it isn't enough to add to the charge significantly, or spill into other waiting case mouths. I was satisfied after checking many charges after the first few hundred that the leakage wasn't effecting the end charge weight enough to matter, so I just kept "grinding" away.

After about 700 rounds, I was getting really frustrated with the thing. I also did my usual random sample weight test of the charged cases sitting in the tray ready for bullet seating, and found most to be over 1 grain high. That was it. Not safe. This was the only batch of 100 I was going to dump out and do over, and before I did, something was going to get fixed.

When I took the measure apart, I found a lot of powder that was causing the grinding in the bearing surface. The bearing is plastic against plastic, but was shiny metallic color. I thought, maybe, if I could clean everything out, it would run smoother, because the plastic looked like it was now coated in graphite. I clean it up and put it back together. Within 20 charges, it was back to it's old grinding. Powder had seeped back into the bearing surface, so I took it apart again. This time, when putting it back together, I tightened the screw tighter than I actually preferred. While the handle turned smoother, it was still harder to turn than it had been. What I found though, was that having it tighter, did not allow powder to get into the bearing surface, therefore it leaks much less. I'm not sure you could run the measure as tight as I do now if it was brand new. I think it may help that it had been "treated" with lubricant (crushed gunpowder). I found that for the rest of this batch, it threw the most consistent charges I've seen it throw yet, and never started grinding again. The handle turns harder than I'd like, but it's not too bad. I got used to it.



So a tip for anyone who hated their Lee Perfect Powder Measure so much they threw it away, or someone thinking of trying one. Take it apart and treat the bearing surface with graphite or some other dry lube safe for plastic, and run it almost uncomfortably tight. That will stop you from having to experience the grinding performance I had to go through for so many charges. I may have to do a little youtube video review of this powder measure now that I've figured out a reason not to throw it away. I've wanted a Redding 3BR for 2 years now, but after figuring out how to keep this $15 Lee measure running smoothly. I doubt I could get much more accurate throws.

One thing about the Lee powder measure, is the drop tube inside diameter is too large for a 20cal case mouth, therefore I have to use a funnel. So did I want to try and hold the case mouth up to the funnel while operating the handle on the powder measure? NO. What I did was buy a Satern caliber specific funnel that sits on the case mouth by itself. I then mounted my powder measure up off the surface of the bench at just the right height to slide the reloading tray full of brass under it. It works pretty slick. Somebody else must have figured this out. How do you guys handle getting powder into a 20cal case mouth? I'd really like to see what Dillon does for a powder drop into a 20cal on their progressive presses. I called Lee and they said the powder bridges in any smaller drop tube than they supply, and they won't make one for 17 or 20 calibers. In Lee's defense, when I first started using the Satern funnel, I had powder bridge in the bottom of it a few times. Look at where the brass tube meets the aluminum funnel on the inside of the Satern funnel, and you''ll see there's a seam. A seam big enough for powder to get into. It was actually kind of a very thin ledge on mine. When I first saw this, I knew I didn't care if it was only 1 or 2 flakes getting in that seam. It had to be taken care of. What I did was apply some clear 2-part epoxy to the seam and spin it for 5 minutes while it set. it made a shiny smooth filling for the seam, and I've never had a charge bridge again.

Notice the white tape on the powder measure bracket (behind the funnel). I put this there so I can see the dark powder as it drops. It gives me more confidence each drop is consistent if I can watch each one, and I couldn't see the powder against a dark background. Thought this might help some.


As I mentioned above, when I trim with the RCBS Trim Pro, it deburrs the outside case mouth, and chamfers the inside. When I'm reloading fired brass I don't need to trim, I use the RCBS Trim Mate. A Giraud case trimmer is on my list. The only case I load in high volume is the .204, so it would be nice to be able to trim/chamfer/deburr 50 per minute.

Baba,
It's always pleasing when the more experienced members pass on their methods to the less experienced. Although i don't volume load there's still good tips to pick up on. Apart from my 243, my 3 smaller Saturns all need tapping or shaking when powder is dropped in them, so i'm going to try your idea for smoothing the ridge out. Thanks,Ken.

and I checked to see all the cases were full to the same level before starting the seating operation


i dont think you will have them all at the same level for the powder. i sort my brass for target shooting(weighing the brass,fully preped and primed)and the ones that weigh less hold more powder(more case capacity)which will look like it holds less,the ones that weigh more hold less which it will look like you have more powder in the case.

in other words,i loaded up some .204,32 vmax,28.0 h4895
started with the cases that weighed less,after seating bullet shook the case and could hear the powder
with the heavier cases could barely hear the powder

kenbrofox wrote:Baba,
It's always pleasing when the more experienced members pass on their methods to the less experienced. Although i don't volume load there's still good tips to pick up on. Apart from my 243, my 3 smaller Saturns all need tapping or shaking when powder is dropped in them, so i'm going to try your idea for smoothing the ridge out. Thanks,Ken.

Thanks Ken,
I don't consider myself very "experienced" considering the level of knowledge found all over this board, but I've learned quite a bit since coming here, and I think it's good to reiterate issues that might pretty much everyone goes through in learning the reloading process. Some of my post was just verifying to others, "yep, worked the same for me".

When I say I haven't had a bridge since I filled that seam with epoxy... I guess that actually isn't true when I think about it. Over time, it's become automatic for me to jiggle the funnel just a bit before moving it to the next case. Even with that, while charging this batch of 1000, I did look at the try when all were charged and had 2 instances where I saw a bit of powder had fallen to the tray. When that happened, I pulled the surrounding 4 cases and dumped them, charging them again. That probably did happen because the powder was bridged. When jiggled, it probably started to drop, but didn't have time to escape the funnel before I lifted it off the case mouth. The epoxy sure helped though.

jo2009 wrote:I dont think you will have them all at the same level for the powder.

By "same", I meant more "checked to see they all had a charge, and were 'nearly' the same level, by eye". I only wanted to verify I didn;t have any up near the case mouth or any so low they'd be a squib load. Just a safety check. One nice aspect of this Ramshot TAC powder, is I don't think I could seat a bullet if I had much of an overcharge, and even if it was compressed, say ~30+ grains, I don't think it would blow up my gun.

I know what you mean though about how some cases shake more than others.

I did weigh the first batch of 1000 Winchester .204 brass I bought. I should point out that while I'm not measuring neck thickness, during the prep process, I do inspect each case before loading it, and am bit confused sometimes when so many say they have to throw away 5% of new Winchester brass. I the 2000 I've prepped, I've only thrown away 1. ? Every other one has been loaded and functioned fine so far.

Below shows the results from weighing that first batch of Winchester brass. I can't remember how I rounded to the weights shown, but they seemed pretty consistent to me. These were weight AFTER flash hole uniforming, but before primer pocket uniforming.


I didn't weigh this last batch of 1000 I just loaded up. Maybe I should weigh up a group and use same case weights when shooting for groups.

I bought the Lee 50th anniversary set. It has the same powder thrower. I find that the 204 neck fits up into the throw tube. If you Turn it in your fingers as you throw the charge no powder bridges occur and I can charge my cases pretty fast.

I almost forgot. Take the funnel that comes with the Lee perfect powder thrower. Cut the Base off of a damaged case. I used some painters tape to thicken the walls of the case so it fit snug into the bottom of the funnel pushed all the way up under the drop shelf in the neck. Then take a pair of needle nose pliers and flair the brass at the neck so it rests over the sized brass you are charging. With the extra drop distance inside the brass case I never get bridging of the large powders. Makes charging the case from your scale much simpler.

JDB wrote:I bought the Lee 50th anniversary set. It has the same powder thrower. I find that the 204 neck fits up into the throw tube. If you Turn it in your fingers as you throw the charge no powder bridges occur and I can charge my cases pretty fast.

I almost forgot. Take the funnel that comes with the Lee perfect powder thrower. Cut the Base off of a damaged case. I used some painters tape to thicken the walls of the case so it fit snug into the bottom of the funnel pushed all the way up under the drop shelf in the neck. Then take a pair of needle nose pliers and flair the brass at the neck so it rests over the sized brass you are charging. With the extra drop distance inside the brass case I never get bridging of the large powders. Makes charging the case from your scale much simpler.

I noticed that the mouth of the .204 case goes inside the drop tube, but figured I'd then run the risk of powder falling outside the case. I never did try it though, so maybe all that fussing with the funnel was a waste of time...? I'll try a few that way. If it works it would be a great time saver!

1000 little soldiers, ready to be unleashed on an enemy many times larger than themselves...

WOW!

I see a Dillon 550 in your future.

acloco wrote:WOW!

I see a Dillon 550 in your future.

If there's a way to have press actuated powder drop, case feeder, and bullet feeder, the investment might be well worth it if I have to load this size batch more than once a year. I wonder what it would take to get this set up and running? Or this? This?

I might pick up a Lego Mindstorm kit and try it.

A 650 would work...and a 1050 would work a little better though.

If you run a 550 as a two person job....you can reload 1000 rounds in an hour. We have done it five times.

9mm, 40 S & W, 223, 223 AI, & 308.

I have 100 primers in the machine and five primer tubes full and ready to go. I handle inserting the next brass on the right, pulling the handle, and rotating the carriage. Partner on my left handles placing the next bullet and checking powder level.

Actually, this about a perfect pace. Don't break a sweat and the action is steady.

I have a lot of the same equipment: Chargemaster, Trim Pro-powered, Trim mate etc. I still dump one at a time with the chargemaster and use my Forster co-ax press. I try to break up the monotony by doing a couple hundred at a time.

One quick observation.....Take some foam, I use 3/8" carpet pad and cut it into squares that will just fit into the top of your ammo boxes. I have started to use 2-sided tape to keep it in place. Your cartidges won't rattle, held in place by the foam in the lid. This will also solve the problem some ammo boxes have of too much space inside. With some boxes if you replace the fired cases back into the box and the box tips-over, the cases are everywhere inside. The foam should take-up enough room to solve that also. I do this cheap trick to all my 50 and 100 count boxes.

remy3424 wrote:One quick observation.....Take some foam, I use 3/8" carpet pad and cut it into squares that will just fit into the top of your ammo boxes. I have started to use 2-sided tape to keep it in place. Your cartidges won't rattle, held in place by the foam in the lid. This will also solve the problem some ammo boxes have of too much space inside. With some boxes if you replace the fired cases back into the box and the box tips-over, the cases are everywhere inside. The foam should take-up enough room to solve that also. I do this cheap trick to all my 50 and 100 count boxes.

Good idea! Thanks

You probably didn;t notice it, but I was a little forceful while trying to get the lid to hang open on the last box in line. The lid broke right off. Those are the Frankford Arsenal boxes, but the MTM blue ones seem a little nicer.

Ya. I agree, bought the FA once when I couldn't find the MTMs. Might even have to go with 1/2" foam, if I remember correctly the FA boxes are somewhat deeper. Post pics as you are empting those guys!

Great post Baba, thanks muchly!

I remember thinking, "why doese everyone want to get so automated??" Time is causing me to understand, LOL!!