SmallCaliberCentral

Just one comment here from an old geezer that has been shooting/reloading most of my life. IMHO three shot groups cannot be relied upon when testing for accuracy. Shoot 5 shot groups (100yds) and use that as your baseline. That will give you a much better analysis of your rifle and load. Then shoot a 10 shot group (200-600yds) when you find the load that gives you the desired (5 shot) results. Its not that hard to shoot (bughole) 3 shot groups at 100yds. I personally would like to see more 5 and 10 shot ".204 Ruger" groups posted for a more realistic portrait of the rifle/load.

Giterdone said....It's not that hard to shoot (bughole) 3 shot groups.
Is that not why people do it? If you shoot a 5 shot group and two are off surely you're only kidding yourself if you blame the rifle or ammo. Also some people say ignore that one, i pulled it.Less than perfect shooting. Having said that i'd be proud to shoot any of the groups posted, flyers or not. My best groups are always the 1 shots.

Shooting groups on paper only give one a look at the guns/shooters ability to hit the target where the aim is. The true test is shooting a small target where blood letting is the goal.

On paper, I want that first shot to hit the spot I am holding on, each time I shoot. That gives me confidence to hit a chuck in the head at 200-300 yards. All the rest is just posturing in my experience.

I take 5-shot groups and look for a group that will hold +/- .1 gr. For example my 204 Ruger load is 28.0 gr of RE-15. For me to even consider that load the group of 27.9 & 28.1 grains have to shoot just as good, elsewise I toss it. I do this because of the variences of powder measure devices. When I find one I like then I do several 10-shot groups usually on different days to confirm the load. If all is good, I start loading up.

HTH,

Jim

Hi,
Apart form wind induced flyers, what is the cause of those group spoilers after human error is taken out? Should all barrels shoot 5 rounds in quick succession without it effecting accuracy?
Can rounds be tailored so that the first shot from a cold barrel is the best one? Ken

Kenbrofox
"Can rounds be tailored so that the first shot from a cold barrel is the best one? Ken"
All barrels have ther own personality. A pencil thin barrel in a nice walk about rifle might do a great 5 shot group right from the 1st shot on a cold barrel. Now a heaver varmint or bench rest barrel might need a few rounds down the tube before it will shoot a nice 5 shot group.
Most of my rifles on a clean, cold, lightly lubed bore usually print 1"hi and 1/2" left from point of aim @ 100 yards from a benchrest. You then aim a the 1st hole and shoot for group.
When I get done shooting any of my rifles, they are cleaned and and a light patch of gun oil done the bore.
Hope this helps a little.
Later
Ray P

What i am trying to get across is testing loads for accuracy for a big game rifle has a different set of parameters than testing loads for a LONG RANGE varmint rifle. If you reload... the 5 shot group vs. 3 shot group will usually tell you if you took the time to produce quality ammo capable of hitting small targets in a "consistent" manner at long range. Im not talking about the ground hog shooter that shoots at a half dozen chucks on a good day. Im talking about the long range prairie rat shooter that fires 100-300 rounds on a good day, cleans his rifles bore frequently durring the course of firing that day, and does not allow his barrel to overheat. The repeatable accuracy requirements for this type of shooting do not come without some effort, time and expense on the part of the rifleman/shooter both at the range and the reloading bench. (Unless the majority of your shooting is under 300yds were factory produced ammo is usually adequate.)

In my mind's eye a 3 shot group is simpler for "coarse" work and once narrowed down a 5 shot group is to confirm/refine the load.

Using 3 shot groups initially should expedite the process and save barrel wear not to mention the time/cost savings.

I can't put my hand on it at the moment but a few weeks ago I came across a website where a guy was analyzing statistical analysis methods for shot groups (analysis^2?). One of his conclusions was that if you were testing up to and including nine rounds, you should shoot them all at one target. Ten rounds and beyond, shoot no more than five rounds per target.

This guy suggests using something besides the overall size of the shot group as a measure of accuracy. I tried his "radial standard deviation" method. It's pretty involved but not too taxing if you use a spreadsheet on your PC to do all the ciphering for you. It is a more effective method of determining which load is more accurate but its difference only stands out when you've got loads that are so close that the usual overall size measurement doesn't tell the whole tale.

Fred, Thats put it into laymans terms very nicely.LOL. Cheers,Ken.

I've heard of a couple different methods to test load accuracy and they're available on the net for review.

One is called OCW (optiminum charge weight) and the other is called the Audette "ladder". I've never used either of them but I'm going to give the OCW a whirl here this year for another caliber.

HTH,

Hope you remember to post your results if you get round to doing it Jim, will be interesting.TIA,Ken.

TD-Max wrote:In my mind's eye a 3 shot group is simpler for "coarse" work and once narrowed down a 5 shot group is to confirm/refine the load.

Using 3 shot groups initially should expedite the process and save barrel wear not to mention the time/cost savings.

Well said. You are absolutely correct in your statement. I am all for saving wear on my barrels.

+1 on giterdone's method.

Plus, I generally shoot all my test loads over a chronograph as well. The chronograph helps me find plateaus, peaks, etc. from one load to the next. If an increase in powder charge doesn't result in an increase in velocity, you may be at a point where there will be a fairly large spike in pressure if you use a powder charge that is heavier than where the plateau in velocity was experienced. I also like to know what the velocity of my loads is because I make trajectory and wind deflection charts based on velocities using the online JBM Trajectory calculation program and tape them to the stock of my rifle for reference in the field. A sample chart is pictured below.