204 Brass Issue

[FireBallGuy]

Have noticed that after only 3 or 4 firing and sizing operations that the effort required to size cases and seat bullets gets less and less with each sequence. What is the problem here? Use hornady and winchester brass but have a few bags of remington coming in shortly. After my last trip to the range I ended up throwing away several dozen winchester cases as a trip through the redding neck die offered little resistance. These really leads me to wonder if it is a problem with the gun or is the brass at fault here. Dont recall that I have popped an empty out of the chamber and there has NOT been powder residue on the neck even under max loads. Is there any remedy for these cases that appear to have necks stretched beyond being usable? ANy thoughts would be appreciated.

[bow shot]

Savage 12 low profile .204
Hornady brass
Hornady 32 gr VMax
Fed 205M and Rem 7.5 primer
IMR 4064 and Hogdon Benchmark

Not an expert here, but I've noticed the same thing with my Hornady brass. I loaded some 1x fired federal brass last night, and it surely required obvious effort on the press handle to seat. Not that it takes a lot, but my Hornady brass seems to seat by almost just letting the press handle fall under gravity.

Some thing to consider about the effortless seating that I'm experiencing though, since this is me...
1) I have over trimmed that Hornady brass down to 1.8265" (trim-to is 1.84, and if the SAAMI 222 rem mag length applies, min length is 1.830").
2) I did a psycho over-kill job on the chamfer with and RCBS deburring tool (didn't know better).
3) Most of that brass is Lee Collet neck-sized, though some is RCBS F/L sized, and the F/L sized stuff was better, but almost as loose.
4) I noticed the effortless seating beginning with the 2nd firing, I'm up to 4x fired now.
5) The Federal brass that I worked with last night was very lightly chamfered, and I actuall had miniscule jacket peeling on occasion. Trim length was checked at 1.8395" +/- .0005"
6) Even with the effortless seating, it still takes a kinetic puller to get the bullet out of the case, its not like I can pull it out with hand strenght alone.

I've had accuracy problems (rarely under 0.5") after the first load, and it makes me consider neck tension. Hopefully the loaded feds will tell me something.

[FireBallGuy]

Kind of funny you mention the champher thing......GUILTY AS CHARGED!! All recently fired factory case have got a VERY light turn of the champher tool. have not had a chance to do any seating with them yet so time will tell. As far as accuracy go's the gun is AWFULL with any factory ammo I have tried which include: Hornady 32 and 40 grain, winchester 32 supreme and 34 super x and remington 32 and 40 grainers. The gun is VERY fond of benchmark and RL-10X and load developement is looking very promising right now, except for the fact that the trigger on this new gun has gone south. Set it when I bought it and it appears to be getting heavier all the time. Checked it and sure enough it is. Contacted remington told them of the problem, the gun is going back shortly to have the trigger fixed up and I also pointed out how rough the crown was on the barrel. This could explain the lack of true tack driving accuracy. With 10X and a 32 grain BK (just under max charge) the gun will turn in .400" groups which is good but not great. Only seems to be fond of BK's tried everything else all weights. Have a box of 35 grain berger's on deck will see how they run. Thanks for sharing your info bow shot.

[Rick in Oregon]

FBG: What you may be experiencing in regard to the brass issue, is a generously cut, SAMMI factory production rifle chamber. Your inside neck dimension may be on the wide side of tolerence/spec, thereby the brass case has only enough "spring-back" for one or two resizings without annealing the cases and starting from scratch again. This is also where bushing dies come in handy. Even then, after a couple of loadings, the same thing will happen with brass from that chamber (been there before.....)

On chamfering...... FWIW, after 40 years of precision handloading, I truly belive that the absolute best chamfer tool is the 14* helical-cut carbide offering from Holland's Shooting Supplies is the best on the planet. After using it on test cases with naked bullets, coated with WS2 (Danzac/Tungsten Disulphide), or Barnes VLC dry film, NO sign of shaving/scraping coating or bullet jacket can be seen under magnification. Try that test with any of the 45* tools we've all used for years from the reloading tool outfits.

http://www.hollandguns.com/index.html

Shown is his older 3-flute design, the current offering is spirally, or helically cut and has ten times the cutting surfaces.

I'm convinced that this tool alone contributes to greater accuracy from any given rifle. It has made an improvement in every target/varmint rifle I own since I started using it last year.

[bow shot]

I got some jacket peel on that bunch. Faint, but I hate the idea of any...

[FireBallGuy]

so a little heat treatment is in oder then. Is this done before or after sizing? Before would make sense to me.

[FireBallGuy]

And how is it done? Thanks for the info,

[Rick in Oregon]

FBG: Time does not permit me explaining the entire process in detail to get you started. I suggest you read up on the subject properly to understand what you're doing, and the best way to do it. Here's a brief overview of what I do....

Put about 25 or 35 cases standing upright in a pie pan in 1/2" of water. Using a Kindler Series II Annealing Tip on my Benzomatic propane torch, I heat the neck/shoulder junction of each case for about ten seconds, then tip it over with the tip into the water to quench it. I've used the method for over 25 years without any issues whatever, and I load and shoot many wildcats that require die forming and annealing prior to shooting. It will make your brass last much longer in factory guns too. You just do NOT want to heat the lower half of the brass case. Doing so will result in the case separating when fired, causing great grief.

Some use heat temp crayons as I did in the fabrication shop for years, but honestly, the above method seems to work quite well, just remember not to overheat the brass, never letting it glow red. Easy does it, it's not rocket science, but must be done properly. Read up first, you'll do okay.

[MT204]

Here is a great article on annealing.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

[bow shot]

Wow, great article, thanks kindly!

[FireBallGuy]

Ya, that is a great article! Once my gun comes back from remington I am going to give this a try.

[bow shot]

Federal brass loaded fine, btw... bullet/case friction was obvious. They shot kind of crummy though. concentricity was undetectable (rolled on a flat surface, with cartridge sihoetted against a lamp).

Now to do some of the 4x fired for a comparison, see how they fee. I hate using "feel" to describe any variable though...

[Rick in Oregon]

bow shot: As a test using my concentricity guage to confirm this, I found some old '06 factory ammo that I knew had a bunch of runout (.007" avg. as it turns out), and then some of my "zero" TIR 204 loads with 39 SBK's seated. I used your method and rolled each one five times with a sharp shadow......

Result? I could not detect any runout at all with the '06 loads, and they have more runout than anything I'd ever shoot knowingly. Conclusion: You need a concentricity guage, buddy.

I'm not sure how much TIR would be needed to detect it visually using a lamp and shadow, but it must be more than .007", and a round that has that much runout.........well, let's just say it ain't gonna cut it in terms of 'precision accuracy'.

Do yourself a favor, get a concentricity gauge from Holland's or Sinclairs and you'll be able to produce ammo with much more accuracy potential. Here's my Holland unit:



This is a good investment for anyone interested in precision accuracy, and once you get one, you may be surprised at the TIR readings on some of the ammo you've already loaded. Warning: This addition can also help deplete your bank account further by wanting even more neat sutff like bushing dies, comp seaters......

[Jim White]

Rick,

Funny you should mention TIR. When I started shooting we were issued "Match" ammunition, M852 to be exact. Since it was a Navy rifle, only military procuured ammo was allowed to be shot in it. On my 1st rrip to Camp to Camp Perry I saw several "East-Coast" shooters opening up their issue ammo and checking the run-out. As a service rifle competitor the sights just aren't as refined as match rifle sights, much less optics.

Anyway, I went over to commercial row, found me a RCBS case master, plopted down $40 and went to checking my issued ammo. To my surprise, in a box of 20, most were .004 to.005., maybe, five or six were .003 or less and three to four were .006 or greater. The .000-.003's were segregated for the 600 yard line and the .006 and greater were for the 200 yard line (I used mine for standing), the rest were used for 200 and 300 yards.

A very valuable tool, especially in long range shooting.

Jim

[Rick in Oregon]

Jim: I've heard similar reports from other competitors who checked "match" ammo with a concentricity gauge. It's amazing what the factories churn out in terms of quality considering the millions of rounds they produce monthly, it's a wonder any factory loaded round shoots as well as they do nowadays considering the TIR I've found in factory varmint rounds. Arsenal match ammo has always been considered to be good stuff, but I see now that our guys over in the Sand Pit are using alot of Federal Preminum Match 7.62x51 NATO (.308W) ammo in their bolt guns......I'm told they can get it easier, and they really like the consistent performance it offers.

But like you said, a concentricity gauge is a valuable tool for anyone interested in precision and/or long range shooting.