hornady 40 gr. v-max questions

[dirtriderdave]

i have a remington xr 100 1-12 twist chambered in .204, the factory hornady 40 gr shot the best out of it but i can not achive the same results when im reloading. im using 25.5gr of h4895 with a rem.7 1/2. i also tried reloading some of the 32gr v-max with even worse results. i was just wondering if anybody has this same gun with a good load,or even some sugestions. also the primers on the factory loads were raised up like they were hot and these handloads that i have made are doing the same, even though im under max load. this is my first experience reloading a small cal. with small rifle primers, but im assuming same rule applies with pressure signs?

[Silverfox]

Just a wild guess on my part, but I'd suggest you have a competent gunsmith check the headspace on your rifle if your primers are backing out.

The fact that your load of 25.5 gr. of H4895 with the 40 gr. V-Max projectile is half a grain BELOW the starting load listed by Hodgdon might also be causing your rifle to hiccup.

You don't mention whether you have tried any other powder charge weights with that bullet. If you haven't tried other charge weights I'd suggest you load up 5 with 26.0 gr. of H4895, 5 with 26.2 gr., 5 with 26.4 gr., 5 with 26.6 gr., 5 with 26.8 gr., 5 with 27.0 gr. and 5 with 27.2 gr. If you are still alive and have all your fingers after the 27.2 gr. load, I want to tell you are getting close to the maximum load recommended by Hodgdon which is 27.7 gr. of H4895 with your 40 gr. V-Max. If there are no signs of excessive pressure with the 27.2 gr. load and you haven't shot a group that is a keeper, you might want to try 5 casings loaded with 27.4 gr. and then, since you are real close to the max listed load start increasing the powder charge only one tenth of a grain at a time, so load 5 with 27.5 gr., 5 with 27.6 gr.

If you have three or four loads that seemed to shoot fairly accurately, say your loads of 26.8, 27.0, and 27.2 shot pretty good, you may want to try loads of 26.7, 26.9, 27.1 and 27.3--only one tenth of a grain difference each way from those loads that shot pretty good.

If you still haven't hit the jackpot and found a keeper load, again, I'd pick out three or four of the charge weights that gave you the best groups and start changing your seating depth. By the time you get done load testing it may be time for a new barrel I say that because I have kept track of the number of shots I have taken at paper and at live targets. As of today, August 5, 2009, I have shot a total of 2,627 bullets down the factory barrel of my Savage 12VLP in .204 Ruger and 1,164 of those were at paper and the other 1,463 have been at live targets. The barrel is still a great shooter, but I sure burned up a lot of barrel life trying to work up loads. I have tried maybe 10 different powders, three different primers, and seven different bullets since June of 2004. It has been fun, but very time consuming and has no doubt taken a toll on the accuracy of my barrel.

Remember, change only one thing at a time in your reloading regimin. Otherwise, if you change powder charge weight AND seating depth, you won't know which thing caused the improvement.

[jo191145]

Welcome to the forum Dave

As you probably know, Hodgen lists 27.7 gns as max for the 40 V-max with H-4895. Starting charge is 26.0.

Two possibilities come to mind. First, your under minimum charge weight and expieriencing adverse pressure reactions from it. Underloading can be more dangerous than overloading sometimes. Most likely not the problem though. H-4895 is the powder Hodgen chose to create "Youth Loads" for in some calibers. I'd like to think they did so for a reason

Second possibility, Your firing pin hole is drilled to large. Happens fairly often to many manufacturers these days. Remington has been guilty of really oversizing them on a few occassions judging from the pics I've seen on the web. You should be able to run a search on this forum and find some pics as one case was discussed here.
In said thread Remington supposedly explained to the owner they did this on purpose. By allowing the primer cup to flow around the firing pin they claimed it thickened the primer preventing blow outs. Me thinks some Tech at Remington has a very vivid imagination

OK I lied. Heres a third. Are you cleaning your tube with the proper brushes, patches and most importantly correct solvents?

[MT204]

My boys and I shoot Remington 700 SPS Varmit and have settled on the 40 grain Hornady v max. We are using 25.6 grains of reloader 15, CCI 400 primers and overall length of 2.26".

[dirtriderdave]

well im a little puzzeled because the hornady reloading manual that i baught says that 26.7 gr of h4895 is a max load and 24.5gr is a starting load so thats where i came up with srarting load basicaly right in the middle of there chart i do want to play around with my seating depth a bit to see if that helps but i first aperrently need to find some more powder info. i also started with this setup because its all i could find locally and had trouble even doing that

[Glen]

What is your OAL? Most factory tubes like some jump. If your crowding the front of the chamber you could be experiencing a pressure spike just like when you load too far into the lands. The other thought is where are you & what was the air temp? Is your ammo "cooking" in the sun before you load it & is the rifle itself in the sun collecting heat? Ae you heating the barrel & chamber up or allowing it to cool some between shots? Last of all what do your groups look like. Vertical strings? Horizontal strings? Shotgun patterns?

[dirtriderdave]

well im shootin in western pa and out of the bottom of an old barn where it is cool and i generally shoot a group of 5 then let barrel cool with my factory ammo the groups were generally less than .500" unless i got a woderer or two from wind my hand loads are between .500" and 2" with basicly no consistancy what so ever

[jo191145]

Dave

Your absolutely correct on "Hornadys" loading data. 24.5- 26.7.
What can we say? Book data is book data. I personally never noticed that discrepancy with H-4895.
I've always considered Hornadys data as pretty good (that means high end loads)
You see, Hornady was in on the development of the 204 and it was in their best interest to keep velocitys high.
Sierra and Berger on the other hand usually have very conservative data. Sometimes bordering on dangerously low. I've seen some massive blow by using some starting loads from Berger.

All that being said I go to the powder manufacturer for load data whenever possible. My recommendation is go with Hodgen data.
I really bite at links but Hodgen data is available online. Just search for Hodgen powder. Very extensive data base for all cartridges.
Just hope your not using a dial up connection
Seeing as your new here theres a good chance you haven't yet noticed. Upper right of any page theres a link "204 Load Data" that will get you just about all the available 204 data. Been loading since I got my 204R in 2004 and I use that link a lot. Very very useful link that is.

I think our first step should be to figure out why your seeing primer cratering. Is primer cratering what you are expieriencing when you say "primers raised up"? Or are they backing out of the primer hole as Silverfox suggested?
If they're cratering my best quess would be oversize pin hole. Easiest fix is just live with it and use thick primers. Your 7.5's are good.
Any chance you could post pics of your primer problem? A pic is worth a thousand words. The other fix is getting your bolt bushed.
I hate to say it but don't waste your breath on Remington fixing it. Chances are slim to nothing and slim just left the state.
I have one bolthead for my Savages thats oversized. Bought from Midway FWIW. It craters just about all loads but the primers do not blow out any easier than my normal boltheads.
Its not as large a crater as some of the pics of Remingtons I've seen though.

If they're backing out its a headspace issue. Easily fixed by necksizing or adjusting your FL die to the oversize chamber. I've seen some winchester brass that was fairly well short in the headspace measurment compared to sammi specs and other manufacturers.

Let us know what your primers are doing for safetys sake. Then we'll make it accurate

[dirtriderdave]

the primers are not starting to pop out of case but to me it looks like it is just raised up around where the firing pin hit as if it is hitting too hard i was just worried because i always was told and read about that sign of when it was too hot. i have never heard of the firing pin hole being too large till now. i will try to get pics on here but i am lucky i can even get on this site but will try to figure out. thanks for all the advise and help too! oh i checked out the load data charts they seem very useful will have to give a try, i also checked out the rifles section and the xr 100 rangemaster is the same exact gun that i have maybe you can give me a little imput on what i should expect out of this model?

[K22]

Like jo191145 mentioned, Remington is well known for enlarged firing pin holes. I've had several 700 BDL's in 17Rem. and everyone of them had enlarged firing pin holes. No matter what load I tried thru them, the primer would have a crater around the firing pin strike. My Model 7 was the only one that doesn't do that. It's quite frustrating to say the least, but I learned to live with it. Silverfox gave some good advice on load development and that's what I would try. I use a Berger 35gr. behind 27.8 gr. of H4895.

[jo191145]

Dave

Your right. Cratering is one of the signs of overpressure. Most likely its now a sign of an overlarge pin hole on your rifle.
So You'll need to learn to drive without that sign
Watch the corners of your primers. When they start to flatten your creating pressure. Nothing wrong with creating pressure thats what the 204 was designed to do.
Two other things can flatten the corners besides pressure. Excessive headspace and shallow primer pockets. Keep that in mind.
Most importantly keep a close eye on the firing pin indent itself. As pressure increases it will begin to get shallow. If it actually begins to reverse and looks like a small pin sticking backwards your within a few ft lbs of blowing the primer(blanking)
Needless to say your way overpressure for (Your) rifle and need to back off quite a bit.

I can't quess as to your rifle with its large pin hole. A normal bolthead that shows reversed pin holes is way above any book data and very dangerous pressure levels. You may or may not get there faster with your gun.

Some folks measure thier rim of the brass. Any increase of .001 or more and its to hot. Never done this myself. Maybe someone with expierience can correct me if I'm wrong on that.

The old sticky bolt is another sign hard to miss.

Start working loads. As Silverfox suggested the sweet spot can be as small as .1gn. The 39's to 40's seem to be more sensitive as to distance from the lands (hence more tuneable by the lands). Not implying they absolutely need to be close or jammed but seating depth variations seem to be more important to the heavies.

Never owned a Remmy. No idea what you should expect. If your gun aggs .5 with factory ammo you should eventually be able to beat that with carefully crafted handloads.
Your gun may not like 4895. Theres only a thousand other variables but I've never seen a gun that did'nt have powder preferences.
My 6ppc shoots well with N-133 and H-322. But right now X-terminator outshoots them both hands down. Don't tell the pro's, they would'nt believe it anyway.- Good Luck

[acloco]

Not sure if anybody mentioned this, but factory Hornady ammo uses "proprietary" powder that is not available to the general public. Going by book loads, you will not achieve the same velocity.

The 40 VMax's I use, prefer a 0.050" jump to the lands.

[kenbrofox]

Hi K22, do you have any figures you would share for your 35g x27.8gx 4895 204 loading? Regards, ken. Ps.What's the heaviest varmints you use the 35s on? apologies for going off topic.

[K22]

Hey Kenbrofox, I thought you'd never ask.

First, the rifle is a Ruger Ultralight still in factory stock form other than the trigger job I gave it. Being a diehard 17 Rem. shooter, I waited until last fall to get the 204. Also, since I live in some pretty steep mountains with very heavy under growth, I wanted the lightest sporter I could find. The Ruger Ultralight fits this bill pretty good.
I started out with factory ammo and on Silverfox's suggestion, I went with the Federal 39gr. load. I was very pleasantly surprised when this rifle continuously turned in 3/4" groups at 100yds. I need to add that the largest scope I use for Coyote/Fox hunting is a 2x7 and 99% of the time stays on 2X. That is the scope I test my groups with also.
For the first month I owned the rifle, I did everything I could to convince myself that the factory ammo was all I needed, but.........I've been a reloader for about 30yrs and the temptation was just to strong. So the dies were ordered. Now, what bullet to use????? Like I said earlier, I'm a 17Rem lover and the best bullets I've ever used in that caliber have been the Berger 25gr. Match and the Genco 25gr. So, I ordered some 35gr. Bergers, but the biggest question was what powder to use. Man, there is a lot of different assortment of powders on the market and everyone has there favorites and that includes me. In rifles, I exclusively use Hogdon powders with only one exception. The best powder I've ever used in the 17Rem. has been H322 and that was what I originally was going to use. And here again, Silverfox got my attention with his use of H4895 in his 204's and as usual, he was correct.
Now to answer what you originally asked kenbrofox. I use Rem. 7 1/2 primers, Remington cases, but some times the once fired Federal cases that I collected from the factory stuff, Berger 35gr Match bullet with an overall length of 2.235 ( any longer and they won't fit in the magazine). All behind 27.8gr. of H4895. I don't know the velocity, but the Ruger Ultralight barrel is 20". With the scope on 7X, I have shot many 1/2" to 3/4" groups. The biggest question is: will it shoot under that with more scope? I don't know and will probably never find out. That is good enough groups for the area I hunt in. 50yds is a really long shot here. The only Coyote I've taken with it was at about 30yds and like the 17Rem. a little hole in, no exit, and no runner.
I really like this round, but for me, it will never take the front seat that the 17Rem does.

I sure hope this long winded dissertation answers your question kenbrofox.

K22

[kenbrofox]

K22, thanks for all that information. I rember you mentioned that load some time ago, but i wasn't interested at the time as i couldn't get any 35 hp bullets.Now i have them i will certainly work up to that load. I prefer the HPs to the vmax bullets. I grabbed my first 17, a remmy 700 in 1972, i think it was one of the first in the country at time and i've loved the caliber ever since. At the moment my 17 is a fireball which i think is great. MY first 204 was also a ruger ultralight synthetic and after fitting two timneys ( i knackered the fist by filing the safety and checking it when it was in the wrong position) it would shoot under MOA. Unfortunately i had to let it go as the barrel was just too skinny to thread for moderator...a costly exercise....should have kept it and just had two! cheers, kenB.