A couple case prep questions...

[BabaOriley]

1. It felt like I had a revelation today. I was thinking about the thousand new .204 brass I just uniformed flash holes on, and how the next step should be full length sizing them all. That's what I plan to do, but my question is about what comes next? The last batch I did, after resizing, I trimmed them all, to (I think) 1.837 or 1.838. 1.840 is the recommended trim length, but I wanted them to all be uniform, and many cases didn't even reach the cutter at 1.840. Now after trimming you should be able to load right? BUT - Wouldn't the trim pilot spinning around in the case mouth have a tendency to leave you with inconsistent case mouths (seating tension)? Especially if one case may get trimmed more than another. Really, it seems they should be resized again after trimming, but that sounds ridiculous.

2. Primer pockets. Rick In Oregon posted a pic of his Forster hand crank primer pocket uniformer. My question here is related to the ease of use of any tool like this.

I have an RCBS power case prep center. It seems it should work the same as Ricks hand crank tool, but maybe not. The RCBS holds the cutting tool vertically. You hold the case in your fingers and push the primer pocket down, onto the cutter. Now I bought this cutter new, and tool steel should last for many thousands of cuts on brass, but maybe mine is dull. Maybe my hands are just really weak, but... When I push the primer pocket down on the cutter, half the time it just grabs the case and twists it out of my fingers. If I hold it tight enough to actually cut, I can only do 50-100 cases before my fingers are sore as heck. I noticed wearing rubber gloves helps grip the cases better with my fat, sometimes sweaty fingers, but I'm leaning toward leaving the primer pockets alone on this current batch of new brass. I don't think I can get through 1000 cases leaving all of them with a consistent primer pocket.

Any ideas on this one?

I have a suspicion that the RCBS primer pocket cutter I've been working with is just not as sharp as the Forster or some other brands. If it were sharper, it may cut instead of rip the case out of my fingers. I may have to try a different system.
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For a while now, for cleaning out primer residue on once fired cases, I've put a stainless primer pocket brush in my drill press on low rpm, and push each primer pocket onto the brush, giving a quick twist to each one, trying to get down in the bottom corners. I've found some residue is very tough even for this brush, and has worried me a few times what kind of force it takes to get it shiny clean in there. I wonder if the stainless on brass will wear out the primer pocket prematurely. It just seams if you go to the trouble of uniforming the primer pocket in the first place, you wouldn't want your primer being held up on once side by a piece of residue from the last firing.

[Rick in Oregon]

Baba: First off, I always neck size new brass only, not full length size it OR trim (yet). Why? Because all we're doing is making the case neck uniform and regulate neck tension to hold the bullet for fireforming.

I don't use power for primer pockets for the exact reason you state. I've been using my cheap lil Forester hand crank for literally thousands of rounds with the same cutter (Forester), and being carbide, it's still as sharp as the day I got it years ago. The trim pilot being hand cranked, never galls or binds in the case neck either. Occasionally I lube it with Imperial Sizing Wax to keep things nice and slippery. No glove required, no cases being wrenched out of my hand by grabby cutters under power.

As for trimming: New brass in the bag will vary in length, usually most being slightly undersize. Neck size only, then trim after the first firing, as if you F/L first, you will work harden and stretch the brass needlessly, and once fired, every case will stretch a slight amount, requiring trimming again to keep them all consistent and thereby giving consistent bullet tension (vertical stringing). Trim after the first firing, and I think you'll find all cases in that lot will stay fairly consistent in regard to overall length.

I just neck size new brass, outside chamfer with a Wilson 45* tool, then use a Holland 60* inside neck cutter, which gives a nice, smooth 60* entry at the case neck. No shaved jackets, WS2 shavings, etc. I've noticed an increased degree of accuracy since using this tool alone. In my opinion, this is NOT a job for a power tool, as we want to get a nice smooth cut here, and doing it by hand allows a very finite feel to the task.

On your last statement about residue in the primer pocket.....the Forester cutter will remove the residue and even cut a very slight amount of brass from domestic cases. Lapua and Norma cases are much more uniform, and my cutter rarely if ever removes brass from these two brands of cases, and I finish up each pocket with a twist of the stainless RCBS brush (no worry about harming the cases either). WW and R-P cases however, ammost always get a bit of brass removed in addition to the residue, indicating that their pockets are punched too shallow every time from the factory.

When I use my Sinclair priming tool, my primers are exactly .003" below flush of the case head, the way they're all supposed to be every time. Hope this helps a bit to sort this out....

[BabaOriley]

Thanks Rick. All your advice is logical, and appreciated, although I'm sorry I forgot to mention I'm loading for an AR. My goal is to produce the most accurate ammo I can for it, even though it can't have a match spec chamber, and the brass must be full-length resized when new and after each firing. I understand some steps in match reloading won't be useful for an AR, but I want to give my loaded ammo the best effort I can.

I'll try lubing the trim pilot.

I would like to uniform primer pockets. The trouble I'm having with the RCBS (most likely carbide) cutter grabbing could come from a few factors. An out of spec or tight primer pocket, an out of spec or too large cutting tool head, or, as you said, Win cases may just have more shallow primer pockets, requiring a high amount of brass to be removed, making them difficult to hold onto. I thought you may have said somewhere you use Winchester brass Rick.

I guess my plan is to FL re-size, trim, and load up 50 or so here, and try them without touching the primer pockets, to see if it effects consistency.

One other question... Consider that even though I'm FL resizing, don't you think the first firing is still going to fire form/change the brass somewhat? In my situation, having to FL re-size, and the majority of loads throughout a piece of brass' lifetime, say reloads 2-9+, would it be a good idea to use once fired brass for load development instead of new? Considering I have nearly 2000 brass for .204, it surely wouldn't be feasible to fire form 2000 brass before loading hunting rounds with them, but it makes me wonder. For small batch loads, like a load for coyotes, where I may only fire 50 (I'd love to need that many) a season, it seems like I should use once fired brass to work up the loads for those. Is that correct?

[Rick in Oregon]

Baba: I was not aware of the AR factor, but you're correct overall (IMO) in what you're doing. When the autoloader is concerned, F/L sizing is about mandatory, and even the use of SB (Small Base) dies is usually a good idea.

You are also correct in that I use a large quantity of WW brass for various high volume rat rifles. When brand new, I uniform the primer pockets, and always remove enough brass to leave a completely machined surface at the bottom of every pocket. I notice that the corners or edges of them are factory radiused by virtue of their tooling, and our primers of course are not radiused, so as a result they will not seat properly in these improperly formed factory primer pockets.

By sheer coincidence, the Norma cases used exclusively in my Cooper 223 ("Rosa"), are all from an industry prairie dog shoot from a few years back that I had on hand as once-fired cases, so an exception in brass was made for this particular rifle. Both Norma and Lapua as mentioned are the creme of the crop as you well know.

The first firing (fireforming) will indeed reshape/change your brass....perfectly to fit THAT particular chamber. For "accuracy loads", I always use once fired brass from that rifle, trimmed properly for consistent bullet tension. New brass properly prepped is perfectly suited to "hunting loads". The critter ain't gonna know the difference! When fireforming freshly formed cases in my wildcat 17 Ackley Hornet or 17 Mach IV, I shoot squirrels when fireforming, and still get plenty of "launch factor" to know things are running the way they're supposed to. The accuracy is there even with loads never fired in that chamber up until then. So "yes", once fired (or more) for load development, new for hunting/general shooting.

Remember, there's no hard and fast rules here, this is what has worked for me and those who've mentored me in the past, some of which knew/know more than I'll ever know.

[BabaOriley]

Thanks Rick!

My first goal here is not to wreck anything. Not many of us come across Norma brass left at the range, and 2000 Winchester brass was a pretty hefty investment for me. The time it takes to prep them all, even if I'm not neck turning etc., is also quite an investment. My second goal is accuracy. I'm seeking that elusive load that groups 1/2" consistently out of my AR. I know that's hard to come by in a bolt gun let alone a semi-auto, but apparently it's being done all over the world, "all day long if the shooter does their part".

Actually I'm really happy with my AR in .204. It shoots a consistent MOA right now, and I get lucky with a better group often enough to keep pursuing perfection. It's really been a learning experience seeing how minute changes in methods and specs can change the resulting targets. I still hope to find time to take that 7 hour trip to South Dakota this summer.

I think I might try a different toolhead for primer pockets.

I'll let everyone here know how it goes.

[MT204]

There was another thread going on this subject just the other day.
I decided on the K & M precision shooting flash hole unifier:
http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/flash ... 19_20.html
and the K & M small rifle/pistol primer correction tool:
http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/prime ... -tool.html
Ordered them on Monday, they showed up today. I tried them out at lunch using a "small" cordless drill.
Very very happy with both of them.
Now only have 967 more case to do.