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Need info primers backing out!
Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:23 pm
by Ryan S Albright
I have reanealed some winchester brass and full length resized it, trimed it, and loaded it with 25grs of Xterminator with 34gr HP winchester bullets with cci primers. The primers are backing out on just about every one of these cases. The primer hole has been debured from the inside. Is it time to through the cases away? Or do I up the powder charge? Have the primer pockets in larged?
Re: Need info primers backing out!
Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:17 pm
by jo191145
If they're backing out from firing then you set back the headspace of your brass way to much with your FL die.
FL dies should not be screwed down past the ram stop. Even if the directions say so. The directions are wrong!!!
They need to be adjusted with the large collar until your pushing back the shoulders roughly .001".
If they're falling out in the ammo box then scrap em.
Re: Need info primers backing out!
Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:09 am
by Ryan S Albright
Thanks for the info I believe I did set the shoulders back to much. Thank you.
Re: Need info primers backing out!
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:21 pm
by scott_r
double post
Re: Need info primers backing out!
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:24 pm
by scott_r
jo191145 wrote:
FL dies should not be screwed down past the ram stop. Even if the directions say so. The directions are wrong!!!
The RCBS manual says to 1/8 to 1/4 turn further down. Do you usually just get the shell holder to touch the die and leave it there??
I have a similar problem as the original poster.
Cheers!!
Re: Need info primers backing out!
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:44 am
by Jim White
Ryan,
You can oversize and its not too hard to do. When I have a caliber I load for the upmost accuracy one of the tools I buy is a "Wilson Cartridge Gage". They run around $20.00 or so and I've found them to be very useful, especially when a gas-gun is in the picture.
HTH
Re: Need info primers backing out!
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:13 pm
by Ryan S Albright
I took the brass that I fired and necksized them and got excellent groups so I am sure I over sized them with the full length dies. I was wondering if I took the rest of the primered brass and fired it with just the primers would that be enough to fire form the cases so I could neck size them and reload them?
Re: Need info primers backing out!
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:38 pm
by Frank
Well, this is certainly a new one for me... that is, the oversizing &/or having the die set too far down with 1/4 more turn past the shell holder per the instructions.
Problem is, that makes no sense. Once the die hits the shell holder it is done; 1/4" more turn or not. It is impossible to set the shoulder back by doing that exclusively. I would love to hear what RCBS would have to say. Guess I could call them?
Perhaps I am missing something... However!
Frank
Re: Need info primers backing out!
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:53 pm
by giterdone
Frank.... Chamber dimensions can and do vary, thats why most reloaders do not "initially" screw their die in to touch the shell holder. If the chamber was cut on the deep side by the factory the shoulder could be pushed back enough to create an excessive headspace condition by bumping the shell holder. A Wilson case length (headspace) guage is a very important addition to a reloaders bench. RCBS also makes a "Precision Mic" that keep you on the right side of the dark side.
Have you ever tried to chamber someone elses reloads that would not chamber? Could have been the different headspace of the two chambers. Redding makes a 5 piece Competition Shellholder set (black oxide finish) so you can adjust your headspace by selecting the appropriate thickness shellholder.
Re: Need info primers backing out!
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:33 pm
by Frank
Well, not to touch the shell holder would absolutely make a difference. The previous post(s) sounded to me like one should touch the shell holder instead of screwing down another 1/4". There would be no difference in this situation is what I was referring to.
Chambers do vary, however, the o-n-l-y time I've ever seen chambering problems were with "neck" only sized brass. I have never seen it happen with standard full length size dies on standard commercial made rifles. I'm one to "never say never", so it is possible... just not real likely in industry standard made commercial stuff is all.
I am also not so sure about "most" people not following the dies instructions. I guess I need to start asking hanloaders this question. lol
Frank
Re: Need info primers backing out!
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:14 pm
by jo191145
Folks, if your not measuring your headspace then you have absolutely no idea what it actually is and where your FL die should be set. Industry standards are a little to loose for me I quess.
We've seen posts from some who could not size thier brass enough with a particular die to chamber. Operator error or deep cut die?
I have one shell holder thats .010" shallower than standard. If I inadvertantly used this with a preset FL die I'd be bumping back my shoulders .009" more than required.
FWIW I use the Stoney Point .308 caliber comparator on the 204R case. It centers nicely on the shoulders giving me an arbitrary datum point to work with. Seeing as I load for the 308 also I did'nt need to buy any special stuff for the 204;)
jo191145 wrote:
They need to be adjusted with the large collar until your pushing back the shoulders roughly .001".
Re: Need info primers backing out!
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:35 pm
by Bayou City Boy
So many issues like this that you see regularly on the Internet could easily be avoided if new re-loaders took time to understand two simple things:
1. Understanding that the first step to re-loading is NOT asking for every ones' favorite load for your pet rifle on the Internet....and then digging in and starting...
2. Understanding that the first step to re-loading is BUYING A RELOADING MANUAL, READING IT FROM FRONT TO BACK WITH SPECIAL EMPHASIS ON THE INFORMATION SECTION THAT EXPLAINS HEAD SPACE IN RIFLE CHAMBERS.
It's amazing to me that many folks want to play with potential explosives but they don't want to take the time to understand the safety issues.
JMO - BCB
Re: Need info primers backing out!
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:05 pm
by Frank
Bayou, do you really believe you are talking to beginners here? LOL You're pretty funny!
Like I mentioned already, what giterdone & jo states are correct, once we got past the die "NOT" touching the shell holder... If it touches, then it absolutely does NO harm to turn another 1/4 turn down, Because...
"Factory" chambers are in fact loose as pointed out, or we would have problems with FACTORY ammo NOT chambering. And we do NOT (have that problem) and is exactly why RCBS or other commercial dies do NOT need to be set above a "standard" size shell holder for commercially made rifles.
Where we would have a problem, and where guages become important are when we start "neck" sizing only &/or using custom barrels with specific non standard &/or tighter chambers etc... Which the majority of folks I know anyhow, do not do.
Ok, I'm all beat (up) on this one and wave a white flag if you like. lol However, I could get into the advantages or LACK of, on neck sizing but that is another topic for a later date. Besides, what do I know? (pls don't answer that) LOL
Regards
Frank
Re: Need info primers backing out!
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:19 pm
by Bayou City Boy
Frank:
And you're pretty silly and vane if you think I was talking directly to you...
You shouldn't be so sensitive... My comments were not directed toward you at all... If you spend all your time on the Internet looking over your shoulder about every comment made, you're going to bump into a lot of immovable objects and scuff up your boots...
Anytime someone has primers backing out and doesn't understand why, they need to do some learning about what it is they are doing.
And yes....in a lot of cases "talking to beginners'" is exactly what happens on the Internet... But again, I wasn't talking to you... Buck up and smile...!
-BCB
Re: Need info primers backing out!
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:11 pm
by jo191145
Frank, not looking to beat up on you or anything but I disagree
Frank wrote:Bayou, do you really believe you are talking to beginners here? LOL You're pretty funny!
Like I mentioned already, what giterdone & jo states are correct, once we got past the die "NOT" touching the shell holder... If it touches, then it absolutely does NO harm to turn another 1/4 turn down, Because...
"Factory" chambers are in fact loose as pointed out, or we would have problems with FACTORY ammo NOT chambering. And we do NOT (have that problem) and is exactly why RCBS or other commercial dies do NOT need to be set above a "standard" size shell holder for commercially made rifles.
Factory ammo fits in all rifles because the brass is headspaced short to very short. The initial fireforming causes this short brass to stretch and fit the chamber. Most if not all of the stretching occurs at the web which weakens the brass. This is unavoidable with factory ammo. Once is bad enough. Setting your FL die according to instructions will return your brass to this short one size fits all condition forcing it to stretch again.
Case Head Seperation is the eventual result. This is exactly why setting a standard FL die to your specific chamber dimensions is crucial. Semi Autos are a whole nother can of worms.
In Ryans case his loads were probably light enough that his specific chamber walls gripped the brass enough that it did not stretch backwards to the bolt face. At least not fully. Yes, this can happen. If he was shooting a stout load he might have seen some seriously flat primers or worse. His expierience is a prime example of why its crucial to know ones headspace and set the die correctly.
Where we would have a problem, and where guages become important are when we start "neck" sizing only &/or using custom barrels with specific non standard &/or tighter chambers etc... Which the majority of folks I know anyhow, do not do.
Measuring headspace with a neck sizing die is not needed. As long as everything is in specs you will not be bumping back the shoulders with a neck sizer. FL dies require measuring headspace with the emphasis on require.
Shooters may get by FL sizing without measuring their brass for a long time. Its better for accuracy, brass longevity and physical health to size correctly.
Just looking to set the record straight, or as straight as I can. I don't consider myself a thoroughly educated reloader myself.
Ok, I'm all beat (up) on this one and wave a white flag if you like. lol However, I could get into the advantages or LACK of, on neck sizing but that is another topic for a later date. Besides, what do I know? (pls don't answer that) LOL
Regards
Frank