Keyhole help!?!?

[E.Tn.]

Brand new guy here!

I bought a Savage 11FNS and the thing keyholes with handloads. Two boxes of Hornadys didn't have a single keyhole but about 7 keyholes in about 60 or so handloads. I talked to Savage, Sierra, Hodgdon and nobody was able to help at all. The only consistant things are that no handload cases were trimmed and the best groups had a flyer keyhole. I own a lot of guns and have never even SEEN a keyhole before. The best I can tell is that once fired and sized cases do stretch about 10-15 thousandths but none near 1.850"

BTW, I have been using 39gr BK and 35 gr Bergers with RL10X and H4895 near (but below) max loads.

Thanks
Greg

[WrzWaldo]

Which Hornady ammo were you shooting 32's or 40's?

edit: Welcome to the forum!!!

[jo191145]

Your keyholing Sierras.
No I'm not psychic. You called them. Its also not unheard of.
Question is are you having the same trouble with any other bullet? Are your 35 Bergers keyholing or just the Sierras?

Lots of folks like the Sierras in the 204. Can't blame them, the 39's BC is great.
I've had trouble with them in three different barrels. I never tried them in my second replacement barrel.
My first tube keyholed them like crazy. In the other two I get a lot of blow ups.

If your flipping Bergers too then you have a problem. First place to look would be the crown.

[E.Tn.]

Waldo - I shot a box of each 32gr and 40gr Hornady. No keyhole. I have another box of 32's and we'll se about those. Also, I faled to mention I roughly followed the Savage break in procedure.

Jo - BK's AND Bergers both keyhole! I talked to a guy at the gun store where I buy powder and he thought case trimming may help. I have a Forester on the way. Anyway - my .243 reloads shoot lights out at .4's in an old Remington 788 I've had for 40 years. I'll try to post some photos later of the keyholes.


Greg

[glenn asher]

I'm going with the muzzle crown theory, it's pretty daggoned rare for a rifle to keyhole with all loads, unless there's something wrong with the rifle itself. Still, I'd mike the Sierras and see if they're undersized, just in case.........

[E.Tn.]

If the crown were the problem, wouldn't the factory loads keyhole also?

[jo191145]

E.Tn.

Ouch. I told you I wasn't psychic. I was not expecting that answer.
I'm guessing you've looked at the crown as good as you can. No visible damage? Little nick? Nothing? Can you scrounge up a magnifying glass or jewelers loop?
If the crown is not the culprit the only other thing I can think of is copper fouling. To be honest I have no idea how copper could cause a bullet to keyhole. It probably can't. It can ruin accuracy and might be partly responsible for blow ups but keyhole. I just can't fathom it.

Just because theres no reason not too.... try this.... Have you cleaned the barrel since this incident?
If not, run a few wet patches of mild solvent through the tube. If its really gunky you could even use a brush.
Run a few dry. With a small flashlight peer down the muzzle. You see copper? How much percentage wise?

You've already set a record as being the first person to tumble a Berger in the 204 to my knowledge. I won't bother congratulating you.
Lets hope your not the first to do so because of copper deposits near the crown. Its easier to recrown your barrel than fight that much copper.

By the way, how were your groups? Mine used to keyhole as tight as 1.5 moa. A little tighter and it would have made one heck of an egg shooter.

I see your new post. Retry the handloads. If and when they start flopping switch to the factory stuff and see what happens.

[E.Tn.]

jo,
I looked at the crown at the range with the naked eye. Nothing jumped out at me. I'll get the loop out in a little bit and give it a close look see. Barrel was fairly clean - only about 85 shots have been fired with no more than 5 shots between a cleaning with Hoppe's #9 and Hoppe's copper solvent. A thorough cleaning after my last outing at the range showed only light copper and powder residue.

Berger/H4895 27.6g - .6" no keyholes
27.8g - 1.5" 2 keyholes
28.0g - 2.3" 1 keyhole
28.2g - 1.6" no keyholes

39G BK/RL10X 24.1g 1 - 1.1" (1 keyhole flyer 2" dead left)
24.3g - .9" 1

Cant locate the other BK/10X target


Factory Hornady 32g 1.6"
Factory Hornady 40g 1.3"

[jo191145]

If this problem persists the cheapest remedy is to send it back to Savage. I see you called them. I'll be surprised if they didn't say box it up and send it back.
Just me personally, I hate sending stuff back. Just hate the hassle and wait. Me being a tinkerer would recrown it myself and if that didn't work I'd buy another SS varmint tube to screw on it.
Not suggesting you or anyone else eat the price of a new tube. Just the way I am.
I'm perfectly willing to destroy a Savage tube in the hopes of getting it to shoot better

FWIW I also noticed you wrote sized cases stretch .010-.015. Is that a headspace measurement or total cartridge length.
Either way thats extremely excessive. If your full length sizing you need to set your die for the proper headspace.
Good Luck and keep us informed.

[E.Tn.]

jo.
The Hornady unfired factory cases are about 1.830" and after firing and neck sizing most come out around 1.840". No cases have even gotten near 1.85". If I can get some good weather I'm going to try the Bergers and 27.0g-27.6g H4895 in 0.2g increments and a box of factory Hornady and Winchester loads also. I keep coming back to the fact that I've not had ANY factory loads keyhole though. I don't want to foofoo your theory about the crown, but the only constant is the factory loads haven't keyholed yet. Savage says they'd use factory ammo to test my gun and if they couln't get a keyhole they'd box up the gun and send it back with no further investigation. I'm sure either someone here or I will eventually find something.

[WrzWaldo]

Hey E.Tn.

Your not shooting a smooth bore are you?

[E.Tn.]

Hey E.Tn.

Your not shooting a smooth bore are you?

Hey E.Tn.

Funny you ask, Waldo. The grooves look very shallow to me - but no keyholes from factory loads yet.

[E.Tn.]

I'm going with the muzzle crown theory, it's pretty daggoned rare for a rifle to keyhole with all loads, unless there's something wrong with the rifle itself. Still, I'd mike the Sierras and see if they're undersized, just in case.........

Glen, I mic'ed about a dozen each of the BKs and Bergers and all were almost exactly between .204"-.205". I'll closely examine the crown this evening.

I guess my question is that is it POSSIBLE for CASE length to cause keyholes or has anyone ever seen or heard of case length causing this to occur?

Thanks.
Greg

[jo191145]

No one can say for sure without measuring but in my experience Savage chambers are fairly long. Usually get readings like 1.870-1.875 before the brass starts hitting on the freebore.
Bullets getting pinched in the freebore still shouldn't keyhole. You'll see some nasty pressure spikes and terrible accuracy though. You should easily notice damage to the case mouth long before the bullet is damaged enough to keyhole.
In other words you should be able to tell you have a major problem before your stripping the jackets in the brass.

Shallow lands?
The 20 cals do have shallower lands than a .224 caliber.
The only Chrome moly Savage tube I bought did have visibly shallower lands than the three Stainless tubes.
I remember remarking to my friend during break in and finding out it shot the 40's well, "I always wanted a tube that shot 40's. Now I got one and it will probably last 500rds before its shot out"
A sample of one is meaningless but I buy the stainless tubes only now.

So it is possible you got one with shallow lands. What are you comparing it too?
My CM 12FV barrel was amazingly accurate with handloads. But only for 6-10 shots. After that it would begin walking all over the target.
I tried everything I could think of to get around it but nothing worked.
I'm not interested in a barrel that needs to be scrubbed clean after every group. Good Luck.

Edit to add
I still find it odd that your cases grow .010 after firing. I've never seen anything like that.
If anything new brass usually shrinks in length after firing.

[Rambler]

I really believe your problem is the barrel needs to be cleaned better, you have to keep all the copper and carbon out.