SmallCaliberCentral

So last time I shot some okay groups with my 40gr V-Max loads from sand bags with no rear rest. Today I shot some more loads but off both my new homemade rifle rest, and some sand bags...both with a rear bag.

I loaded 10 rounds of the stuff it shot fairly good last time out, and then 3 more batches of 10 in half grain increments.

Nothing shot good. And I am not being picky IMO either. I am talking about one round being somewhere near where it should be, and then a round being 2-2.5" off to the right. Most stayed within a .5" vertical spread, but all told the max vertical spread of all the groups combined is 2".

Now I will admit, there was some wind today, but it wasn't terrible IMO. Not enough to blow a 40 grain center fire rifle round off course 2.5" at 100 yards. A 40 grain LR I could understand, but this just seems bad. Maybe 10mph?

I would post a target but there really isn't anything to see, other than 12 little target dots that look like they got peppered by birdshot.

I have about 8-10 rounds left that I will shoot when I load up some 32 grain BKs.

Sorry to hear about it. Have you checked the scope mounts, action screws, ect.? What scope is it?

Cooper M21 w/ VX-III 6.5-20x40mm

Everything is tight.

A coopers doin' that!?!?!?!? With a leupold!?!?!?

I vote there is copper in the barrel.

Try some standard Hoppe's on a swab...let the barrel sit for ten minutes after swabbing, then push a dry patch through. If it is green..you got copper.

I used Hoppe's BR9 after the last cleaning. (Then I ran some normal 9 through it to clean out the BR9. Didn't know if I could leave that stuff in there.) I think I cleaned out all the copper if there was any, the patch never has been green. Maybe my gun is like new again....where it wouldn't shoot 40 gr bullets at all.

Seriously, I really don't know. But maybe I removed whatever copper was in there and that was enough to keep it from stabilizing 40 gr bullets. None of the bullets hit sideways, but I don't know enough about the flight to really comment to far on that.

I just loaded some 32 gr BKs. This might be a great chance to see if the bullet weight really matters in my gun.

Question:
Are all non boat tail bullets needed to be guided into the seating die?

Most didn't want to sit in the mouth like BTs do. I was scared they would be out of round, but the max OOR I got was .0005, which isn't really any different than my other brass.

But while the last two loads I have done (both the good shooting and this terrible shooting) were all done on the Dillon with the Dillon powder dispenser. So I don't think that is the problem. But just for fun I got a powder funnel set from MTM and so these 10 rounds of BKs are all as perfect as I can get from a balance beam scale and a powder trickle. Too bad I probably won't make it to the range again this weekend or even next.

Copper in a Cooper ? I agree with acloco it sounds like a copper problem but..... Another possibility. Did you mount a large base to your new homemade rest. You mentioned vertical dispersion of the groups. If your front bag is sticky (new leather usually is) it could be rocking back with the recoil causing vertical flyers.
Mount a base if you haven't already. Should extend 10'' or more to the rear. (You have tons of vertical lift on your rest. Your better off keeping it as low as possible) I would suggest adjustable feet on the base to overcome any warp in the base or bench.
Next rub your new (leather?) bags with talcum powder. If they're Nylon bags forget that step This needs to be done often to new leather bags. Eventually they'll slick up nicely on all but the most humid of days.
Your gun needs to slide easily without disturbing either bag, especially if your shooting free recoil.

By all means check for copper. Hornady pills seem to copper the worse. Dogtowns could be worse. Maybe thats why so few have found great loads using them. I just posted a long winded opinion in General Reloading under Dirty Powders about POI dispersion from copper fouling. (Sorry for the stolen thread) Might want to read it and see if anything seems familiar.
If you find there is copper Wipeout is an awesome product. Remove the carbon with your #9 and foam it with WO.
Be prepared for some foam over. Must have a bore guide or your action will be inundated.

The rifle does need to be able to slide back in the bags. I use sticky backed felt to overcome the friction of leather. Powdering bags is just too tedious and messy. Most arts and crafts stores sell the stuff in 12X12" squares. Check out the green strip on my rear bag. The rifle can slide back without disturbing the bags.

Nice Skipper

I built a front bag out of 1/4" pliable/bendable foam and that sticky felt for my front rest. Yep from a craft store. Would not be legal in a BR match because theres no sand but I don't shoot BR anyway. I no longer pay attention to my cant levels just let the flat pad and sides in the front do its job. I added an extra strip of foam to each side just to make sure the stock always rides on the sides and doesnt rock in the middle. A wood or metal base probably would be even better (less flex) but I'm pretty happy with it the way it is.
Never thought about putting that sticky felt on the rear bag I could use a new one anyway.

I loaded 10 rounds of the stuff it shot fairly good last time out, and then 3 more batches of 10 in half grain increments.

Be very careful with this small case. .5grs is a big jump. We would rather hear about a bad range report than a bad range experience.

.2grs is much safer & will help you find what you're looking for. You could be skipping over 1-3 good loads with that big of a jump. HTH

Are you using a chronograph?? Also the way your front rest is setup the sling swivel could be contacting the front rest on recoil & as the rest rocks back it lifts the front of the barrel. Just keep your rest back 2-3" from the swivel. HTH

Copper in a Cooper ? I agree with acloco it sounds like a copper problem but..... Another possibility. Did you mount a large base to your new homemade rest. You mentioned vertical dispersion of the groups. If your front bag is sticky (new leather usually is) it could be rocking back with the recoil causing vertical flyers.
Mount a base if you haven't already. Should extend 10'' or more to the rear. (You have tons of vertical lift on your rest. Your better off keeping it as low as possible) I would suggest adjustable feet on the base to overcome any warp in the base or bench.
Next rub your new (leather?) bags with talcum powder. If they're Nylon bags forget that step This needs to be done often to new leather bags. Eventually they'll slick up nicely on all but the most humid of days.
Your gun needs to slide easily without disturbing either bag, especially if your shooting free recoil.

By all means check for copper. Hornady pills seem to copper the worse. Dogtowns could be worse. Maybe thats why so few have found great loads using them. I just posted a long winded opinion in General Reloading under Dirty Powders about POI dispersion from copper fouling. (Sorry for the stolen thread) Might want to read it and see if anything seems familiar.
If you find there is copper Wipeout is an awesome product. Remove the carbon with your #9 and foam it with WO.
Be prepared for some foam over. Must have a bore guide or your action will be inundated.

I think the vertical string assessment is correct, even though my rest was almost all the way down. The wind thing still bothers me though. Its possible I guess, it just seems excessive. I don't think it was copper fouling, unless it was a lack of copper fouling and not liking 40 gr bullets.

(I like the one where the guy next to me got a bullseye. This is a homemade target mind you, I made it myself in Illustrator and printed it up. Its not like there were two of these down range for him to aim at.)

Glen wrote:

I loaded 10 rounds of the stuff it shot fairly good last time out, and then 3 more batches of 10 in half grain increments.

Be very careful with this small case. .5grs is a big jump. We would rather hear about a bad range report than a bad range experience.

.2grs is much safer & will help you find what you're looking for. You could be skipping over 1-3 good loads with that big of a jump. HTH

Are you using a chronograph?? Also the way your front rest is setup the sling swivel could be contacting the front rest on recoil & as the rest rocks back it lifts the front of the barrel. Just keep your rest back 2-3" from the swivel. HTH

It was still .5 grains from max load. No sling swivel.

I was justing going to find a which one it shot okay with and then load more loads in that range. I read someone else doing that and having good results. I just don't want only 3 shots of 15 different loads, I would like to limit user error, so 3 groups of each load would be best, and its a 40 mile round trip to the range. 3 3 shot groups of .2 increments would be 45 rounds for just the 28-28.8 grain. 135 rounds to load 28-29.5 grain. I realize patience is something of importance in this sport, but with how crappy of a session this was, and depending on next session, there could be a lot of pulling. I am still new to loading, and I am a firm believer in not putting all my eggs in one basket...at least not until I know that basket like the back of my hand.

I am at or more than one grain under max load on several different powders because I get hard pressure signs in my 204. Please heed the caution, work up in smaller increments, it gets exciting FAST.

You know that your barrel is clean, when you can run a wet patch to the end of the bore (do not exit), and pull it back to the chamber.....and you can "feel" if there is any tight spots in the bore.

OK. Some rifles don't care for the 40's either. That may be what you are experiencing here too. The 39gr Sierras should serve you well tho. Seems most rifles like them. IMHO this rd shines with the heavier bullets from 3800fps & up. The 39gr Sierra's shoot in a whole new world compared to the 40gr V-Max in my Rem700. HTH

I ran the 40 V-max through JBM's ballistics calculator. Either your terrible at judging wind speed or theres another problem

For the 40 to blow 2.4" off at 100yds you'd need to be going the slowest Hornady has data for (3400 fps) with a 25 mph steady crosswind at a perfect 90 degrees to the bullet.
I thought those Coopers would shoot just about anything but as Glen said another bullet might be in order. 39's are good, Bullets that come in a Yellow box are usually even better. The 39's do have a much nicer BC for long distance. If your Coop won't shoot them then you have problems.
In my expierience the 40 v-max has always been at the bottom of the list in bullets my barrels preferred. But I don't own a Cooper either.

Welcome to the often frustrating world of Handloading