SmallCaliberCentral

I have a couple questions about CFE223 for the powder savvy

1: Can it damage steel? Any copper fouling remover (like Sweets) left in your barrel too long will mess it up, so can a copper fouling eraser mess it up if there's not enough copper to erase? Has anyone tested how many rounds of CFE must be fired to erase all the copper? Should you shoot some CFE, then something else?

2: I used to work with a bench rest guy, he'd clean his barrel down to steel, then fire 10 fouling rounds, then 100 match rounds, then repeat. I've read that a little copper in there is good, too much is bad, and even worse for sub-calibers. If you shoot all the copper out, wouldn't groups open up?

Thanks in advance all, I just got dies, so I'm trying to work up handloads with whatever I've got since powder is MIA here in Colorado.

ThaDoubleJ wrote:I have a couple questions about CFE223 for the powder savvy

1: Can it damage steel? Any copper fouling remover (like Sweets) left in your barrel too long will mess it up, so can a copper fouling eraser mess it up if there's not enough copper to erase? Has anyone tested how many rounds of CFE must be fired to erase all the copper? Should you shoot some CFE, then something else?

2: I used to work with a bench rest guy, he'd clean his barrel down to steel, then fire 10 fouling rounds, then 100 match rounds, then repeat. I've read that a little copper in there is good, too much is bad, and even worse for sub-calibers. If you shoot all the copper out, wouldn't groups open up?

Thanks in advance all, I just got dies, so I'm trying to work up handloads with whatever I've got since powder is MIA here in Colorado.

1) No. It's a completely different type of thing. The copper removers in powders such as this are tin and/or bismuth compounds.

2) No. Again, not the same thing. Don't expect a powder to scour the bbl 100% clean of all traces of copper. Some do a really good job minimizing or nearly eliminating it, but not necessarily 100%. And in any event, it will reach an equilibrium of sorts, which is all you're looking for with 'fouling shots' anyway. Plus, the carbon fouling remains.

MZ5's got you steered straight.

1) ammonia based cleaners like sweets, don't themselves harm steel barrels anyway. What they can do, is absorb moisture and then cause an accelerated rust regime to start.
2) Sub calibers issue with fouling, can come from the coatings used in Hodgdon's extreme extruded powders. One of their byproducts, is a type of fouling known as "Hard Carbon". Very nasty to get rid of.

CFE223 is the canister version of SMP 842. That powder has elevated levels of the Tin/Bismuth cleaning compounds, first used by the French around 1900; because of the all copper bullets used in the new 5.56 NATO ammo.
I say elevated levels, because they have always been in Win 748 & 760; you just weren't dazzled by the same marketing.

So if it turns out that CFE shoots best vs 748 and H335 for me, I'd be ok to shoot it exclusively?

Yes, of course!
Think of CFE as 748-Improved.

Does CFE have the lower burn temp to save the throat like 748 is supposed to have?

Hodgy doesn't market that aspect of any powders they offer, and I am not independently certain. I find it very simple to observe the lower temp of 748 by shooting it back-to-back with a similar stick powder, and observing how long it takes for the barrel to get too hot to hold. One could run a similar comparison using CFE, I expect. One could even compare the CFE to 748, if one had those two and wanted to.

I feel confident that, if CFE is giving you the accuracy and speed you want, you'll be very happy with it over time, too. It's made by the same folks in the same factory in Florida that makes 748, H-335, and all the American-made spherical propellants, but using a bit newer technology. So if you've been happy with any of those, I bet you'll be happy with CFE.

Have fun!

I just happen to have CFE, 748, and 335 and was planning on trying all three. Only have 50 brass though, so 335 got left out for this round.

CFE223 is one of my favorite powders for the 204, especially with 39gr Sierra BKs. That combo using 27.9 gr of CFE is by far the most consistently accurate of any bullet/powder combination I have tried. Last Sunday I got a .303" center to center 5 shot group at 100 yards.

I've had very good luck with CFE223 in the .204. I've been using it in my 22-250 for a while and really like it. Blc-2 and H4895 also have worked good for me too. So far my most accurate loads have been with 40 grain Bergers. I am using 27.8 gr. of CFE223. I am still tweaking it a bit but it is pretty impressive. Here is a 5 shot group I shot yesterday at 100 yards.
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Interestingly enough, I emailed Hodgdon regarding the recommended primer for CFE223 and they told me a standard primer is what they tested with and what they recommend. They still recommend magnum primers with the ball powders like H380 and BLC-2 but said it was not needed for CFE223. They just mentioned reducing the load if you so choose to use a magnum primer. What are you guys using for primers?

Not what a lot do, but I use Rem 7 1/2 and/or CCI #41's in everything I reload for. Never had any issues. Bill K

i have heard on another site that blc(2) and cfe 223 are the same thing. The cfe just has the additive to aid in the fouling.... just my .02

I've heard that Santa Claus is real from another site too...

Bl-c(2) and H335 are spawns of the same parent powder however. 0.25% CaCO is the only difference.
http://www.thegunzone.com/556prop.html

Parent powder-->Canister grade(what the reloader can buy)

SMP 842---->CFE223
WC846==WC844------>Bl-c(2)& H336