SmallCaliberCentral

Hi All,

New guy here to this forum, not new to shooting or reloading. A couple of years ago I got a barrel for my Contender carbine (early model), SS bull in .204 and have been very happy with the results with one exception. Although it shoots VERY accurately with the right loads (.25 MOA on many occasions) I get primers that look like this>>



With any load I have tried and with every primer I have tried. I am loading at just a bit over minimum at this point and have never had any pressure signs of any other type. Brass web in not expanded, no extraction problems, the only brass life problems have been an occasional split neck. I have tried the barrel on two other actions with the same results. Neither neck sizing nor full length sizing makes a difference. My ammo, used in other rifles does not show this result so I am sure that it is something with this particular barrel. I have had the headspace checked and it is OK.

Anyone got any ideas, do I have a problem or am I just being too fussy?

For me, your picture is not clear enough to say you do or do not have a problem. But from what I can see, you don't have a problem with primers.

First try Remington 71/2 primers,then check Mike Belum's site for info on fireing pin protrusion.Doesn't look like a pressure problem.

As what futuretrades mentions - not clear enough picture to tell. Maybe a closer shot from a steeper angle would help?
From what I can see though - Is there a raised section immediately around the firing pin dent?
If so, then I might guess either the firing pin hole is out of shape or over size, or pin under size, in such a way that allows the primer to flow back. Or a weak firing pin spring?
I've not seen this before, just guessing at possible problems

Thanks for the replies guys, here is hopefully a bit better picture>>>>>>



The primer is almost completely flat except for the slightly raised ring around the what should be the firing pin dent. In over forty years of reloading I have never seen this particular symptom.

I have tried virtually every type and brand of primer available to me and the results are all the same. However, having said that I do not remember if I have tried the 7 1/2's or not so will obtain some of them and try them. As I have several barrels for the T/C including a .222 and .225 Win I would have thought the problem would have shown up in one of them as well but I have not seen it. I thought perhaps this was something inherent in the .204 and someone had come across it.

There is the distinct possibility that I am being over cautious here as like I said before I am showing to other pressure signs unless I approach max loads a little too closely and start to get extraction problems. It just disturbs me that this one cartridge would be that different from all the rest and had hoped that those of you that have much more experience with this round would have some idea what is going on here.

Thanks again for your input, I am already a bit easier in my mind.

Dragonfighter wrote:The primer is almost completely flat except for the slightly raised ring around the what should be the firing pin dent. In over forty years of reloading I have never seen this particular symptom.

Some rifles have this same problem, including my Howa. I worried about this same thing. My mind was eased though when someone said the firing pin hole is a bit larger than the pin, thus causing the slight ring around the firing pin hole in the primer. I was told that the firing pin hole can be shimmed to take care of the problem, or just go ahead and learn to live with it. If this is your problem, You have a choice here. If this a really big issue for you, a reliable gunsmith can shim the firing pin hole. As for myself, I am still shooting my 204, with no problems for over 6 years now, and I decided not to go the shim route. And I shoot 1000 or more rounds per year, in the rat fields!
Come to think of it maybe its time for a new 204, or a new barrel!

Dragonfighter wrote:Thanks for the replies guys, here is hopefully a bit better picture>>>>>>



The primer is almost completely flat except for the slightly raised ring around the what should be the firing pin dent. In over forty years of reloading I have never seen this particular symptom.

I have tried virtually every type and brand of primer available to me and the results are all the same. However, having said that I do not remember if I have tried the 7 1/2's or not so will obtain some of them and try them. As I have several barrels for the T/C including a .222 and .225 Win I would have thought the problem would have shown up in one of them as well but I have not seen it. I thought perhaps this was something inherent in the .204 and someone had come across it.

There is the distinct possibility that I am being over cautious here as like I said before I am showing to other pressure signs unless I approach max loads a little too closely and start to get extraction problems. It just disturbs me that this one cartridge would be that different from all the rest and had hoped that those of you that have much more experience with this round would have some idea what is going on here.

Thanks again for your input, I am already a bit easier in my mind.

Well if you are shooting other barrels on that frame,are they the same primer that you are using in the 204?Good luck finding Rem71/2s,but that might solve the problem.If you were running high pressure the primers would fill the becel of the primer pocket.Try reloading the fired 204s and see if it continues to crater the primer.Could be headspace on new brass with soft primers.

Thanks again for the input. Last night we had an informal meeting of the local shooters (read: Super Bowl Gathering) and this subject was brought up. To my surprise I found two other people with the same problem. One of them shooting a Contender in .222 and one shooting a Weatherby in .224WM. Both of them have been shooting their respective guns for years with no other problem and have just decided to live with it.

The Weatherby shooter told us that he had the entire bolt redone to solve the problem and there was NO visible difference afterwards. The Contender shooter, like myself has the problem ONLY with the one barrel, and also like myself, it will do it on any frame he has tried it on. We will meet later this week and weather permitting will switch frames and experiment some more.

The guy with the Weatherby did say that the use of Remingon primers (9 1/2's in his case) did show a small improvement in appearance but nothing else. I will try them anyway just to see. It was also brought up that the Rem 7 1/2 and 9 1/2 primers are .005" thicker in cup construction and are therefore somewhat tougher which may explain the results. At any rate I will report here what we find.

Thanks again for all the input!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's why Savage's Precision Target actions come with a small diameter firing pin (0.062") and correspondingly smaller firing pin hole. It's also why I send my rifles, especially the Remington 700's, out to have the firing pin hole bushed and the pins ground to fit. It's also why I check the firing pin protrusion to be certain it isn't too deep, and set it on the Savages to .040" or as close as can be. Some set it to .060" which is IMO too much.

Here's a link to the expert on TC products: http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/ Give him a call and see what he can do about fitting a firing pin bushing and pin. (In the dim past Belm bought out P.O. Ackley)

Here is a place to have a bolt bushed http://www.gretanrifles.com/services/viewEntry.jsf

That little ridge is mostly cosmetic until pressures get near maximum, then the oversized pin can cause some problems.

my tikka does it with rem 71/2 primers only, cci br4s and federal match dont do it and ive loaded the same 18 cases now 13 times, ive lost two cases , and still havent had to trim or resize the cases i only neck size and ive checked the firing pin and bolt hole and its well within specks i can only surmise it more a 204 trate
cheers bazz

When you get a chance(somewhere safe of course) chamber a few loaded cartridges in your rifle but don't fire them. Check the primers and see if the shiny rings are there. If the marks are there I would say you have to much headspace, causing the head of the cartridge to be forced against the firing pin bushing, causing the ring.

I get the primer ring in two Savage Precision Actions, usually with Federal 205M primers, less with others especially the Remington 7-1/2 BR. Both the Shilen and Pac-Nor barrels are set to minimum headspace, because I set it myself and triple check it. The loads used aren't anywhere near maximum, which may be one of many causes for the ring, where the firing pin raises the initial crater with subsequent pressure insufficient to rivet it flat.

Recently I replaced the Savage OEM bolt heads with newly released replacements from Pacific Tool & Gauge. Monday February 4, I took one rifle to the range and found the ring gone! Both the Federal 205M and Remington 7-1/2 BR showed no sign of the ring. This rifle has a 1:8.5" twist barrel installed and the loads included the Berger 50 grain Varmint BT bullet and up to 25.8 grains of Varget (3295 fps, SD=23), This combination is running somewhere north of 55,000 psi.

There is a discussion of a problem with the stock Savage bolt head on the PT&G website http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/sava ... rmance.htm click on the yellow banner at the bottom of the page to read Norm Darnell's article. In brief, the Savage factory bolt heads are investment cast then tumbled to deburr them. That polishing process deforms the firing pin hole allowing the primers to flow into the gap. Darnell found that he could true up the firing pin hole with a PT&G Carbide Bolt Face Truing Tool, which also flattened the bolt face. Yet several hundred shots later the Savage bolt face had become dished again, and the process needed repeating. Dished or eccentric bolt faces can wreak havoc on brass and accuracy. His discussion with Dave Kiff of PT&G resulted in PT&G developing its precision machined replacement bolt heads machined from a billet of steel.

Installing the PT&G bolt heads required that I reset the headspace, backing off a turn and adjusting back down until the bolt closed snugly on the GO gauge, with the NO GO gauge not allowing any bolt movement. This left the caliber designation on the top of the barrel, about 1/4 turn clockwise from its original position. These PT&G bolt heads are much more precise than the originals and require a bit of lug grease to smooth out (always a good idea to lube the lugs to prevent galling). I left the ejector pin out, to remove the side to side tension on the case in the chamber, which has a small negative effect on accuracy. 10 shots at 100 yards went into a little over .5" center to center, with one called mulligan discounted, 9 shots went into .296" CTC. Main difference was that the primer ring disappeared.

It would seem that bolt face geometry has a great deal of influence on the primer ring. The PT&G bolt head with its flat face and sharp edged firing pin hole eliminated the problem. For those with this problem, a firing pin bushing and bolt face truing, and headspace correction (if needed) may eliminate the primer ring problem. Interestingly, this consistent primer artifact seems a peculiarity of the .204 Ruger cartridge, as I have experienced no other cartridge that would produce it as consistently.

Again, Thanks for all the input. As I am currently during a slack period as far as work goes I have had some more time to experiment with this problem. During this experimenting, not so much pertaining to the problem, just more on my never ending quest for the perfect group. I fired a five round group and although the group was not one of my best it was acceptable. The surprise came upon checking the brass after the rounds were fired.



The brass was a random mix of Hornady and Winchester (as I have found very little difference between them) and the loading was identical in all five. The only difference was that the top three brass in the picture had been neck turned slightly. As you can see, those three have a very nice firing pin indent with only very slight cratering. The bottom two had not been turned and show the usual zero indent with quite a bit of cratering.

I had never neck turned any of my .204 brass lacking the .20 mandrel for my tool. Given the above noted bit of extra time I had fired up the lathe and built one and had trimmed/turned such brass as looked to need it. It would look to me that my chamber neck may be a bit on the tight side. I will be experimenting with more brass and also will be checking with the previously mentioned two shooters and see if the same result can be obtained. Although it seemed to have actually opened up the usual grouping for the time being I will attribute that to the usual culprit (the guy operating the trigger) and keep experimenting.