SmallCaliberCentral

Hello everyone! I've been following the favorite loads topic for a few years and have used a lot of the great info, thanks to all that have shared. I'm shooting a rem model 700 vlss with a 21" fluted stainless barrel. I don't know the twist which is my first problem. My second is I can't develope a load that will shoot under an inch. I've tried just about every bullet from the 26gn grenades to the 40gn v- max with rl 10x and benchmark powders at min to max gns. As far as cases I use Hornady brass that is neck sized and trimmed to 2.840". Primer pockets have been squared and flash holes deburred. My most accurate load is a 32gn combined technologies over 27.1gns. of benchmark for groups just under an inch on good days. I've come to find out that I'm not burning all the powder. I'm thinking about trying IMR 4198 with the combined technologies bullet or maybe some 30gn bergers. Any thoughts on this. Any suggestions in general would greatly be appreciated.

Both of my rifles are finicky. Neither like to shoot under 1 MOA, but will run under 0.5 MOA with a few loads.

I have tried about a dozen different projectiles and 6-8 powders in a few hunded variations.

In general, the most forgiving projectile I have found so far is the 35 Gr Berger Varmint Match (p/N 20303), and the overall best powder so far has been Hogdon H4895.

Not coincidentally, my best ever group is a combination of these two components, although I get 0.5 MOA out of 27.0 gr H4895 and DogTown 34's also (Fed 205 primer, 2.250" OAL).

Good luck!

Thanks for the info Bert. Do you think it would be wise to move to a slower burning powder with such a short barrel? Won't I run into the problem of not burning all the powder?

Not sure how much reloading experience you have, but a few things that really made a difference to my loads are:
-Don't test loads in the wind
-Make sure your bench/shooting rest or whatever you use is rock solid
-Lap your scope rings and check that they're tight enough
These 3 points take a lot of variables out.
-check that your neck tension isn't too tight. I had mine where it took a bit of effort to seat a bullet, but when I backed the neck sizing die off to get less neck tension, the bullet still holds nicely, and the groups became more readable (not sure about smaller, but I could read the changes easier re charge weight and seat depth).

camoclad wrote:Thanks for the info Bert. Do you think it would be wise to move to a slower burning powder with such a short barrel? Won't I run into the problem of not burning all the powder?

I'll let the experts on the forum answer on powder burn theory, but... my empirical results happen to include a Howa 1500 with a 22" barrel. The other gun is a 26" T/C Encore. With the H4895, the Howa is slightly more accurate, but it has a Timney trigger set on it (the Encore is stock). Both rifles have a el-cheapo Walmart/Centerpoint 4x16x40 scope.

I have no idea what the % powder burn is, but neither gun has excess smoke compared to other powders.

All the powder that is going to burn does so generally in the 1st couple of inches, once pressure drops from the bullets progress increasing chamber volume the expanding hot gases do the rest. The powder that produces the best velocities in your manual will do so in any normal barrel length when compared to the other powders listed.
I found my 204 to be the most picky cartridge I`ve ever worked with for accuracy, nothing seemed to want to work. I finally settled on a 39gr Sierra over 26.2 gr of H4895 with a CCI-400 primer @ 2.40" COL. I`m shooting a single shot (XR-100) and doubt the COL will fit a magazine rifle. This load averages under 0.5 MOA for 5 rds consistantly for me.
The 32gr bullets, Nosler and Hornady, threw patterns not groups and the 40gr Hornady wouldn`t do under 3/4" no matter what. The Berger 35gr ran a close 2nd though. Powders tried were Benchmark, H4895, Varget, and CFE223

Cruise the "Favorite Loads" thread... more there than you want to know, LOL!!

Ok...now my head is really spinning! I don't know first hand that all the powder isn't burning, just what a friend said the last time we were at the range. He said the reason being there was an initial flash followed by a circular flash and that's where the accuracy issue could be. He left before I could pick his brain about this. Am i correct in thinking hotter powder, less of a charge. From the general concensus it appears I may want to try the slower burning H4895. The only other variable I have not played with is C.O.A.L. I've been seating my bullets as close to the lans as possible, there still miles away, as I'm not concerned about rounds fitting into the magazine. Should I try seating my bullets deeper and if so at what incriments should I decrease C.O.A.L. to test this variable?

After reviewing my records, I have tried the 39gn. SBKs and have a fairly decent load worked up with benchmark for them, not sub moa, but good enough to do the job just not the precision I would like to see. I reviewed the ballistics tables today and noticed that if you can get them up to about 3700fps they are fairly close in drop at 500yds. as my 32gn. combined technologies load. I may dust off the old SBK box and put some H4895 behind them and see what happens!

in pure white snow fire at a target 100 yards away. then examine the snow for unburnt powder. if you do not have snow get a clean sheet of plastic. put rocks or bricks on it to hold it down. prone fire at a target 100 yards away . make sure you are back 3 to 6 feet from the plastic. it will be harder to find unburnt powder and it will take longer.

camo

Fire a round, pull the bolt from the gun, puff of breathe in the receiver to clear the smoke, peek down the barrel.
If your indeed running an inefficient load you'll see pieces of powder residue sitting on the bottom of the bore.

Both BM and 10X are already on the fast side for the 204R. Should'nt have a problem with either.

With my expieriments with ultra slow powders for cartridges (mostly 30BR) I found more powder created a clean burn not less.
I also found, oddly enough, a milder primer allowed cleaner burn than a hot magnum. Goes against conventional wisdom.

As for your COAL you did'nt mention what it was nor your DTL. Valuable info for helping over the net.
Most factory 204's have a looong throat. Never heard of one that did'nt. Me, personally I've always found the best accuracy allowing them to jump.
Lets say totally hypothetically your Remmy has an extra long throat over the normal long throat. Theoretically seating the bullet long (less bullet in the case) might have a negative effect on powder burn. Gotta admit I have no expierience to back up that hypothetical theory

In my testing with a 204 using extremely light neck tensions (dangerous stuff, not recommended) and normal long jump I found I needed to drastically up the powder charge to get back to normal velocity. I would consider this scenario a possible second cousin to the above hypothetical.
I've always considered the factory 204 as different cartridge than most. While seating depths play a crucial role consistent and proper neck tension also has a larger role than most cartridges. Neck tension becomes the lands in essence.

First step pull the bolt and determine theres a problem, if so we can take it from there.

Second step after burning 10X make sure you scrub that throat good.

JO191145

Curious why you mention scrubbing the throat good, after using 10x. I use it and it burns clean, etc. Have seen no problem with my bore or throat areas ? Bill K

I had some time this past week to load another batch of shells. I was out of BM so I used H4895 and BR-4 primers. This being said I couldn't test the efficiency of the BM. The first set was loaded with 39gr. SBKs at a COAL of 2.450". I started at 25.5gr. and moved up in .3gr. increments.

The second set I used 35gr. Bergers at COAL of 2.350. I started at 26.0gr of H4895 and moved up to 27.2 in .3 increments. I shot today in between the rain showers. Groups were much like my past results. I've posted my best groups with the first 2 being with SBKs and the 3rd with Bergers. Just wish I could suck those fliers in a little tighter and I would happy.

I want to load up another batch with the SBKs and play with the COAL. Any advice on increments in seating depth. I'm thinking of starting at 2.450" and seating deeper in .005 increments to the suggested COAL.

Jo191145, I'm kind of assuming DTL is distance to lans? I don't know what it is and not sure how to measure it. I've never had to do anything with it. Thanks for the great insight and keep it coming!

Well, i'll throw in my two cents...Neck sizing brass made a noticable difference in my .204 especially after the brass had been around awhile. I full length brass only once and then neck size until the brass is toasted. Also, if you dont know what twist your barrel is you could be shooting a improper weight bulletfor that barrel. I can almost guarantee however, that if it a stock barrel you are shooting a 1:12 twist. That twist will arguably stabilize bullets up to 40 grains. If you havent tried them, nosler makes a 34 grain flat base bullet (midway dogtown) Those little things shoot great and are the cheapest bullet you can load for that gun. It is pretty fun to play with the flat base and compare the results to boat tails. hope this helps-good luck

Thanks milkman. I do neck size my brass but I don't know how much neck tension I should have or how to measure it. Seems there is a lot of talk about this. I have also deburred my flash holes. Still can't get rid of the fliers. Almost every 5 shot group I shoot I have 3 good shots and then one or two fliers.

Are you trying to make a five shot group with a cold bore? Might load a few hot rounds to run first then start grouping. Also, cut that orange dot into four pieces and shoot