New to reloading

[Sundby]

Hi, I am new to the forum and have been shooting my stock 204 Remington sps with bell and Carlson stock, vx3 4.5-15 Leopold for about 5 years and just now starting to get into reloading, and would like some help and input, I have read extensively on all the loads and twist and bullets so I am familiar with the 204, I have been shooting factory 32gr vmax to date and they shoot great, have killed plenty of coyotes with it, pretty much have always been able to shoot quarter size groups so good enough for me, my gun has probably 1500+- rounds through it and intend to have it rebarreled and customized eventually, but until then I’m still going to shoot it even though I think it’s running on its last leg, but wanted to give reloading a shot, I have kept all the Hornady brass from it so I have plenty, and wanted to try some of the heavier bullets in my 1:12 twist, I bought some Nosler 40gr bt, H4895 powder rem 7 1/2 primers, oal 2.296 and tried the ocw method today, here is what I came up with, my question is now what, the groups were not that great except for maybe 2, 26.2gr and 27.0gr, should I try to work on these to loads, different powder, try all the loads one more time, I didn’t go up to max and I did not have any signs of pressure, I do not own a chronograph, I will try the 39 SIERRAs when I can get some, let me know what you think, thanks

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[jsh]

I have been reloading for 30'years, still learning, I have just entered the 17 and 20 area. Have had a lot of fun with them.
I won't get you chasing pieces,parts and gadgets. After reading, then reading some more I don't see the Noslers having a huge following in the 20's. I will admit to buying some dog town or varmint night mares to try. It seems like the 39 Sierra then the Bergers and the Hornady with Noslers coming in last.

From your groups that looks to be about normal. You might play with OAL and gain some on your better two groups.

What dies are you using? I have found in what little I have fooled with that dragging the blasted expanded ball back through the neck causes a lot of issues. If using that type of die, inside and outside chamfer/debur, then a bronze brush to clean inside the neck, polish the expander ball, some type of lube in the mouth( I have used mica and graphite, takes very little). Made a large difference in my rifles.
Jeff

[Sundby]

I am using a RCBS full length resizing die, I have thought about buying a neck resizing die to try since all of the brass has come from my gun?, the oal I was curious about, I have them out about as far as I can and still fit in my mag, maybe can get a little longer, I havent tried them them seated in deepe yet, not sure if that would help.

[Rick in Oregon]

Sundby: Like jsh, I've been handloading for just about 50 years and am still learning. Your groups look typical for a factory rifle using F/L dies. If you want to tighten up those groups, use the best group for a starting recipe, then try changing your seating depth in/out. You won't ever be able to touch the lands in a factory 204 because of the excessively long throats in 204 SAAMI spec chambers.

You may also want to ponder your bench technique; good solid bags, front rest, no canting, etc. A chronograph will also reap rewards, as you can eliminate extreme spreads, see which loads are consistent or not, etc.

Stick with the 32gr bullets for now, as with a 12 twist barrel, the 40's will be length sensitive. Also give the 39gr SBK a try, as it's the darling of the 204 heavy bullet crowd. Finally, try neck sizing those cases, as there's really no need to put your brass through a F/L die every time it's shot.

Take it slow, watch for changes, don't go over book max, check your runout too, as this can be the primary cause of flyers on the target. Another reason I use bushing neck dies for all my varmint/accuracy calibers, and check my loads with a concentricity/runout gauge. I use a Holland unit, but they can be found at Sinclair International and other handloading/accuracy outfits. All this assumes your rifle is in good working order, good scope, mounts/rings tight, proper action screw torque, barrel not contacting the stock, etc.

You're on the right track, just change one variable at a time to keep things sane.

[Sundby]

What is run out? And what is the best neck resizer to buy or what do you recommend, will have to order it as there is nothing in my town.
Thanks

[Rick in Oregon]

What is run out? And what is the best neck resizer to buy or what do you recommend, will have to order it as there is nothing in my town.
Thanks

Okay, first let us all know you are in possession of a powder or bullet makers loading manual and have read the beginning explaining basic reloading. Just starting out can be overwhelming sometimes with all the details. I'm betting the answers to all your questions are held within.

Runout, also referred to as TIR, a machinists term for "total indicated runout". This is a term to describe "wobble" of the bullet in the case when rolled across a flat surface. The amount of runout may or may not be visible to the eye, but believe me, it's there regardless. Most times you need a concentricity gauge to really see it, but if the amount of TIR is excessive, you'll plainly see it wobble as the loaded round is rolled across the table or other flat, hard surface. TIR in excess of .002" would be considered excessive for any degree of acceptable accuracy. Ideally, the bullet must be seated in the case in perfect axial alignment with the bore for top accuracy. If loaded crooked or off-center, accuracy suffers accordingly.

With careful handloading practices and good equipment, you really don't need a concentricity gauge if accuracy is good, but if it's sporadic, the TIR of your loads would be one of the first places to look.

For dies, everyone has an opinion including me. They are all good these days, but my personal opinion for what it's worth, is Redding. My best groups every have all been shot using loads made with Redding dies. But as stated, they are all good these days with virtually all being made on CNC equipment.

Pop on over to Sinclair International's website and poke about. Better yet, ask for their printed catalog as it contains tons of technical tips not found anywhere else. They are purveyors of rifle accuracy equipment and are aligned/owned by Brownells, which should need no introduction. Read, read and read some more. None of us "old timers" got to where we are today without hours reading this stuff.

[Bill K]

All of what Rick has said is worth a ton.. Especially obtaining, if you don't have, a good hard copy of one of the major reloading manuals, and read all of the sections on beginning reloading, die adjustment, cautions and advice on how to work up loads.
Sinclair and Brownells have and sell fine equipment for all your needs. Go slow and easy and always be safe and sane in what you do, when working up loads and handling powder, primers and related products. Bill K

[Hedge]

Rick knows of what he speaks. I practice most of the same procedures he uses with the exception of the type of neck die. But like he says, it's a matter of preference. I've carried those techniques into LR shooting out to 1800 yds with the venerable .308 Win.
Building your ammo as though it is a precision part of a precision weapon is what it's about.

[KetelOne]

Redding dies rock! I have them for my 6.5X47 Lapua and my .204. I had previously had the RCBS competion seater die for the .204 but was not impressed as it always produced .004" to .006" runout. With the Reddding seater dies, I basically don't even need to check for concentricity anymore, but still do because I'm OCD. I'm eventually going to replace all of my RCBS die sets with Reddings but this has to be done in incremental fashion as resources permit!

[Sundby]

Sounds good, I will have to invest in a set of Redding dies, what is the model to get for the 204?

[KetelOne]

Sounds good, I will have to invest in a set of Redding dies, what is the model to get for the 204?

Hi Sundby,

The Redding competition bullet seating die I am using is the PN# 55287. Currently, I'm using this in conjunction with an RCBS full length sizing die and I'm getting 1/4 MOA out of a 27.2 Varget charge with the 39 grain Sierra Blitz King. I'm seating them 1.999" (ogive) off of the lands. The Redding competition die is great because it produces rounds with less that .002" runout almost all of the time. As Rick says above, this is pretty important.

With regard to a Redding Sizing die, I'll let the other guys chime in on whether or not you should consider a Redding type S bushing die or not. I use one of these for my 6.5 X 47 Lapua and like it alot but have no experience with bushing dies for the .204 and could not begin to tell you what size bushing would be best. I'm doing fine with my standard RCBS FL sizing die for resizing purposes. So I just bought the Redding seating die seperately.

One thing I'll tell you to steer away from is the RCBS competition seater die (PN 39401). It's the fancy one with the little "window" you put the bullet in. I found this to be sloppy with regard to the micrometer adjustment and the run out with this die sucked (.004" to .006").

Hope this helps!

KetelOne

[Sundby]

One question on bullet seating depth, when I seated these I went out just about as far as I could, when doing a load development should one start the loads in at what the book says then work out? I know it will more than likely change your groups, but is it possibly for some charges to shoot better at different depths? If that is the case then you pretty much have to shoot every charge again at the different depths, if that makes sense or is that a waist of time, let me know what you do. Thanks

[Rick in Oregon]

Sundby, the drill is to make up loads using book spec dimensions for your seating depth. Once you find the load that shoots the best in your rifle, THEN you start to play with small variances in powder weight, a tad up/down to watch your groups size. THEN, once you've found a promising load, you start playing with seating depths, in/out.

Do know that with any factory Ruger 204 barrel, you will never, ever be able to reach the lands. This is by design so this particular caliber can reach the screaming velocities claimed by the factories. Most 204R's have throats longer than .100", at least every one I've checked has.

The key here for the entire operation is change only one variable at a time.

[KetelOne]

Typically, I start out seating everything .020" off the lands (ogive measurement) but this is perhaps, an oversimplification in this case. I use a Hornady OAL gage/bullet comparator to determine this but Rick's right - the generous throat in the .204 combined with the short length of the pills we shoot means I'm going to push the bullet out of the comparator case before it encounters the lands when trying to take my measurement. Or, the seating depth ends up being just too shallow to secure the bullet sufficiently in the case.

In my case (shooting a Savage Predator Max in a hunting application), I wanted the hand load to fit/feed and function properly in the mag, so I worked up a few dummy cartridges, incrementally seating them deeper and deeper until the COAL was a long as it could be but the rounds still fit and fed well from the mag. That's how I came up with the 1.999" (ogive) from the lands and the load is consistently .25 MOA. Good enough for government work!

[Sundby]

Okay, I understand but let me rephrase my question so I am on the same page, if you have 2 loads of different charges made up with the same seating depth, and group A shoots a little better than group B, isn’t it possibly that group B may shoot better than group A with a different seating depth, or will group A always shoot better with different seating depth also. If that makes any sense, trial and error I suppose, I suspect only the rifle will tell you that.