FLIERS ????

[fastfossil]

OK guys what gives with this little 204 and getting a consistent reload. I have been reloading this puppy for about a year now, every time I get a shooter, the next trip out with that exact same load, well not so good. Get them stinking fliers. Maybe three in one hole and one 1/2" out???? I already know what many of you are gonna say, its your bedding, its your scope, its your trigger, etc etc. If thats the case why then when I switch the barrel to my 243, (I'm shooting a T/C Dimension) I can shoot my reloads in 243 and make one hole most all day long, at least I can cove em with a dime at 100. Part of what has me so worked up is the first barrel had a defect in it which took me almost a year to find. Sent it to TC, and they sent me a new barrel. Although this one is shooting MUCH better I still get them fliers. I have only try'd Bergers 35 and Sierra's 39 so far but either of these should shoot. Have shoot many factory loads as well which shot pretty good but same results with these also. I'm at the point of starting to throw money at my reloading stuff but once again the 243 shoots lights out. (same reloading equip). I'm thinking that it is in the bullets. I know it is very hard to make consistent bullets in this tiny size. Thats why we see so many bench rest guys shooting a 30 cal, as these are the easyest for the manufacture to make consistently. Just look at the B.C. listings. I have read many posts where others are having these same issues, but have'nt heard a cure yet. One bullet out of round can sure do it. My last good load was 35 gr. Berger, 26.3 IMR4064, 2.260 COL, CCI 450 primers, neck sized only. Shot .157 with 4 rounds . Took them out again a few days ago and three touching and ONE 1/2' out !!?*@##!... Is there a powder build up happining?? One bullet just off?? My old cataract blurry eys?? Sorry for the long post but almost out of hair trying to figure this one out! Thought I had it just in time to try the skippy 5 round shot out, but maybe not. Any and all help, I'm all ears!

[Darkker]

Here are some thoughts for you, do with them what you wish.

My very first 204 was a Savage from the EARLY dawn of the 204. That shot for a time and was spectacular, then the aliens came.
I would shoot some amount and all touch, then magically the next round would either flat vanish, or be well off the mark. This madness continued until the day I was having a lengthy discussion with Sierra about a few things, and brought this up. The gent who I typically speak with, and who's name escapes me at the moment, chuckled and gave me some advice. The sub-22 calibers develop Hard Carbon MUCH faster than other bores, and TEND to accumulate it particularly quickly when using coated extruded powders such as the Extreme Series. I told him I had already scrubbed the bore and it was spotless. Again he chuckled and told me I was fooling myself, said get out the JB bore paste and REALLY clean it.

Well much to my shock/dismay, he was correct. Finally started getting very small hard flecks(thing the size of a pigweed seed) coming out. I never could cut them with anything, and REALLY had to do a number on the bore to finally get rid of it all. After that, my alien abducted groups went away.

[fastfossil]

Thanks Darkker: I was wondering about that as you might have noticed in my post. It seems like I can never really get the bore clean. Every time I think I have it, I try one more solvent just to see and the patch's come out black as coal again, even if I only start to finish up with gun oil, comes out black. You think the JB bore paste is the stuff to use? I was considering trying Sweets, but think that mostly is for copper and I get very little copper when cleaning.
Is there any anti alien solvent on the market?

[TEXAS222]

I too have this flier problem & want some of that anti alien solvent also. Darkker, if this magic solvent is not for real, how do you use the JB paste? What are the steps using this paste? Thanks, Jim D

[Darkker]

FF, from my experience and few fellows on another board; no solvent will get rid of it once it's taken ahold, that's why the JB.
So what I did was a normal cleaning with patches and solvent. Then got out my nylon brush (the only kind I have) and absolutely coated every possible part of it with JB Bore paste. Seriously don't be stingy, then get to scrubbing. Something around 10 strokes I re-gooped the brush.
Honestly don't remember how many full strokes I did in total, but would venture about 30; due to the tech's advice to due it till you give up, then some more. Well about the time I did say heck-with-it, the brush came out and has those tiny black flecks in the paste. That inspired me to clean the brush and start again.

With as much as I shoot my 204, I didn't want to do that again. Honestly not sure if this will totally avoid it, but since I've changed to only USA made ball powder; I haven't had the problem in double the round count.

[wirelessguy2005]

I have never had a problem with carbon fouling buildup. I only use wipeout patch out in my barrels, i clean them after each day of shooting and have not found carbon buildup in the barrel yet. I just recently acquired a bore scope and looked down my barrels for the first time ever, clean as a whistle so i would conclude that the wipe out patch out product is doing its job. For the record i only use our round 7/8" cleaning patches and wipe out patch out in my barrels, i have never used a brush in my 20 caliber barrels.

[SShooterZ]

I remember shooting with a fella who seemed to scrub his barrel all night in a hotel room trying to chase out the black patches his barrel kept producing. One can only assume it was built up carbon and I don't know that patch out was really helping with the issue. He might have been using a different cleaner though. I could be wrong on that. He too seemed to have a problem with fliers also so maybe carbon was the culprit.

[Clint E]

Pick me! Pick me! I know I bet he was shooting a 17 caliber.

[TEXAS222]

Darkker, by USA only ball powder, you are referring to which powder? Jim D

[Darkker]

Powders, plural.
Any ball powder with Winchester, Hodgdon, some Accurate on the label. It is all made in Florida by defense contractor General Dynamics.
I like CFE223, or 748 under Varmint Nightmares personally.

[Jim White]

It would seem to me that if one’s cleaning techniques have allowed a carbon ring build up then it will take nothing short of some serious “elbow-grease” to get it out.

Fortunately for me, I have access to a bore-scope so I can check my bores from time-to-time. In the past I’ve used:

- SLIP-2000: It’s a very effective carbon cleaner but I hardly doubt it will remove a carbon build up with just a few passes. It is also water based so be careful.

- Patch Out, Wipe Out, Tactical and Accelerator: These products have worked for me as well but…they don’t work very fast. So, depending on the bore condition it may take several days of applying and reapplying to get the bore clean. Be aware though, that other solvents may cause issues if used in conjunction with these products.

- Kroil and Shooters Choice Mixture: This is what I use for the most part and it too is very effective. However, I feel for this combination to work and remain effective one must ensure the tube starts and stays clean; otherwise carbon fouling will slowly return and when it does, a short regiment of Parch Out, Wipe Out products clears it up along with the cooper fouling too.

- Elbow- grease: One of the combinations I’ve used to really get down to the bottom of fouling (copper, carbon and powder fouling) is JB bore paste, some good bronze brushes and lead-away cloth. This combo has never let me down when I really had to scrub a barrel clean. I will follow up this regiment with Sweet’s 7.62 to confirm there is no cooper present.

A word on brushes; folks… get good brushes. I know they get expensive and they wear out probably quicker than we think but they are a consumable; just like TP.

Regarding Lead-Away cloth, be careful around blue finishes because it will take it off.

As far as powders; I use predominantly Hodgdon and Alliant extruded type of powders. I’ve used ball powders from time-to-time but I’ve found they all have their own idiosyncrasies so I can’t say that one brand or kind is any more problematic to carbon build up than another.

HTH,

[fastfossil]

Thanks guys for all your replies. My computer has been down for a couple of days and this is the first chance I've had to get back. I'll be ordering me some JB paste and with a little luck I can get them alien critters outta here for good. On a side note: I always thought that with the T/C Dimension who could ever have a more free floating barrel than that. Well I got to looking a little closer and found the stock was touching just bellow the chamber on both sides. The wood rasp and some sand paper fixed that real quick. So I have made up some of my favorite loads and after "cleaning" the barrel I'm headed to the range, will let you all know what happens.
Thank again

[toasty]

Thanks guys for all your replies. My computer has been down for a couple of days and this is the first chance I've had to get back. I'll be ordering me some JB paste and with a little luck I can get them alien critters outta here for good. On a side note: I always thought that with the T/C Dimension who could ever have a more free floating barrel than that. Well I got to looking a little closer and found the stock was touching just bellow the chamber on both sides. The wood rasp and some sand paper fixed that real quick. So I have made up some of my favorite loads and after "cleaning" the barrel I'm headed to the range, will let you all know what happens.
Thank again

A couple tips with the JB and how I do it for anyone that cares. I agree with Jim, there isn't a better procedure to get hard carbon out and resurrect a barrel. I have repeated this process on about 20 different guns that "won't shoot" anymore and they almost always come out shooting like new again.

Here is my procedure:
Clean throughly with copper and corbon solvents. Using an undersized (so for 204 use a 17 cal brush or a 243 cal, use a 223 cal brush etc..) nylon brush and wrap a couple patches over the entire brush and apply JB liberally to the patches. Add a little gun oil or a few drops of boretech C4 (really cuts the amount of work) to the patch and feed in the barrel. Start at the throat and short stroke with 3-4" strokes down the barrel, I will typically stroke about 20-30 times each time I run down the bore. Never let the brush leave the crown, I use a little bit of tape to mark so I know when I'm getting close. At the end of the barrel, pull the brush out and add some JB and some more C4 and repeat. You may need to replace your patches every couple of rounds as they will be black. Most of the offending carbon is going to be within the first 1/3 of the barrel and you'll be able to feel when the carbon is gone by the tightness of the patch. I will repeat this process until the barrel feels exactly the same from the throat to the end of the barrel which may taken 10 or 30 rounds depending on barrel, powder, bullets, etc...

I have a 243 that needs this about every 300-400 rounds to keep it accurate and other guns that will shoot well past 800 rounds before starting to loose accuracy.

[TEXAS222]

toasty, what do you clean the JB up with when finished? What is your final step? JD

[Jim White]

I follow up with Sweets 7.62 to check for Copper. It also helps get the JB paste residue out. If the Copper is good I'll use Kroil or any fine liquid gun cleaner or oil and it comes right out.