Horandy COL And Bullet Comparater Guage

[The Reloader]

Hello Again! I have loaded hundreds of rounds for my 7mm Rem Mag and 45ACP and I just recently found out about This System from a comment on my you tube video series on reloading. I Always Used Just a Dial Caliper measuring the COL and never understood how to avoid bad seating depths from Crushed bullet tips.. Any way I think I understand The Process Just have a few questions to make sure I understand it 100% Correctly.

1. With tool you push the bullet till it touches the rifling?
2. At This Point is the shoulder of case pushed up tight as well?
3. With this "control" number would this be considered Zero Head Space?
4. Is It Safe or more accurate to seat all the bullets this depth?
5. If we need to set it deeper how much deeper is it supposed to be set?
6. Do they have the Comparator insert or the 204 Ruger?

I Really appreciate your responses In Advance!!!

[Rick in Oregon]

Time to do some reading!

[sharptailhunter]

1. With tool you push the bullet till it touches the rifling?
2. At This Point is the shoulder of case pushed up tight as well?
3. With this "control" number would this be considered Zero Head Space?
4. Is It Safe or more accurate to seat all the bullets this depth?
5. If we need to set it deeper how much deeper is it supposed to be set?
6. Do they have the Comparator insert or the 204 Ruger?

I Really appreciate your responses In Advance!!!

Reloader,

You almost have it correct. We're really talking about two seperate measurements. Let's start with the headspace first, since that's what you'd fix prior to seating a bullet. So, to do that, use the Hornady L-N-L caliper collet with the appropriate bushing, for the .204 you want bushing "A". Now measure a fired case. I use a digital caliper and set that measurement to zero. FWIW though, my chamber is measuring my fired case right at 1.555 inches. Now, determine how much headspace you want. I have found that 0.002 inches allows me to consistently close the bolt without any resistance. So, I incremently turn my sizing die in until I get brass that measures 1.553 inches, or because I zeroed it on a fired case, I just keep sizing until the caliper reads -0.002 in.

Now for the bullet seating depth, use the red Hornady L-N-L stick thing a ma bob with the appropriate modified case. FYI, this use to be made by Stoney Point and Hornady acquired it. Anywho, I place the bullet I plan on using into the neck of the modified case and use the grey plastic inner rod to hold it from falling all the way into the case. Now, insert the case and bullet combo into your chamber until the case is snug in the chamber. Then, lightly push the grey inner rod forward thus pushing the bullet against the lands. A tip I like is to use a cleaning rod, without any attachment, inserted from the muzzle end of the bore. That way you can use the cleaning rod and the grey inner rod to move the bullet back and forth until you are certain, by feel, that the bullet is at the lands. Now, lock down the grey inner rod using the brass thumb screw and then remove the whole combo again. Right off you should notice that the bullet looks to be really far out in the neck of the case. Using the appropriate bullet comparator (for the .204 it will say "17-20") measure the length of that modified case and bullet combo. NOTE, you are measuring the COL to the ogive, not the tip. Most reloading data just shows the case head to bullet tip measurement. You can disregard that measurement, kind of, for now. Now you just have to determine how much free-bore, or bullet "jump" you want to have. This just comes with trial and error. I have read that some .204 bullets like a little jump. I have tried .020 but now I'm trying .040. I have read some guys like .080 in. Now, incremently adjust your bullet seating die to just seat the bullet to the desired depth, e.g. -.020, .040, .080, or whatever suits your fancy. My dad swears that his .223 shoots best with the bullet touching the lands, so theoretically, his free-bore would be .000 in.

I hope that's not all too confusing?!

[The Reloader]

Thanx SO MUCH fo you your detailed answer I Do Understand everything you wrote. I Believe that the only thing I was mixing up was free bore and head space i totally understand free bore. Head space is before you resize right? And does the headspace change with a neck sizing die?Once again i really appreciate your detailed TYVM

[sharptailhunter]

No problem on the instructions, but like R.I.O mentioned, some reading would really help you out. There are complete chapters in books about things like headspace. I'm sure there are probably whole books for that matter on headspace. One book I have read numerous times and still refer to is "The ABCs of Reloading". The Lyman manual #49 is also a great reference. Both of them talk about headspace, free bore, neck sizing and they do it in a more articulate way than I ever could.

Remember, reloading is fun, but it can be very dangerous. It ultimately is up to you to make sure you know what you're doing. Literally, you have to be cautious when seeking info/advice on reloading principles from others on a internet forum. Most of us could be talking out of our azzes for all we know, and as such, you'd be unwise to seek our counsel first. Instead, go to the trusted sources, i.e. reloading manuals and dedicated how to books, that's where the true knowledge is. And, at least they have lawyers backing up their words

[The Reloader]

Lol I think you have the wrong idea. I really know what im doing when it comes to reloading (I seriously have a nice set of videos on YouTube to prove it) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn7S3lHHdfo I'm not saying to watch it but I really know what im doing. I have 4 reloading books including Lyman's I Believe I do know everything i need to know about reloading I just still have issues with the concept of head-space i don't know why but i do. Thanx again bud!

[sharptailhunter]

Lol I think you have the wrong idea... I Believe I do know everything i need to know about reloading

Yikes , I wish I knew everything I needed to know about reloading. I know you're trying to be confident yet trying to gain knowledge at the same time. Nonetheless, I watched your videos and with all the cander in the world, I think you still have a lot to learn. For the most part, your steps are safe but basic. Certainly I wouldn't say they are anything special that would make your ways the ways of extreme accuracy. I think they are good steps that each reloader should be comfortable knowing how to perform. It appears you lack the understanding of the principle of some things. For example, why do you call it a Lee neck expanding die? Overall, does the neck expand or shrink during the process of a cartridge being fired? Based on that answer, which way would you want to "size" the neck?

As we sort of discussed before, the bullet comparator can help you measure a bullet at a more reliable "spot" on the bullet, known as the ogive. Using said comparator with other tools can help you fine tune your loads a little. Headspace can be a difficult subject to grasp for some people. You have the manuals, refer back to them. Did you know that headspace is measured differently for a bottle neck cartridge vs a straight cartridge. What about the 7mm cartridge you talk about? It's belted. Does that change anything? What about your 45ACP? Where does that cartridge headspace?

For me, those are the advanced principals that are the most fun to learn about. However, keep loading and shooting, that's how we really learn.

[The Reloader]

LOL i knew i should have not said I know everything. I know I dont know everything I just got dissapointed when I got the response go read (like I have not already done that) just came here for some answers that i could not "grasp" from my books. And my videos are for beginners. not sure if you have seen many other videos but I just show much more "starting out" accurate ways than other videos. And to answer what you said about the expanding. I believe that it does expand in your chamber but than rapidly cools and retracts. But I guess we can end this topic.

[RAMOS]

Reloader,
Don't be disappointed by Rick's response. The guy has forgotten 10X's as much as I will ever know. He will give you answers that prove to be helpfull. For me, the concept of headspace did not really gel until I had three things in front of me: a rifle, a tool, and the instructions. I had read about it and thought I had a notion of it. When it came to doing it, I found I had to forget what I "thought" I knew. I followed the directions step by step (more than once) until my results jived with the directions. You will, however, almost always want to keep the bullet off the lands. The question becomes "how far" off for accuracy with a particular load/bullet/rifle combination. That answer can only be found at the shooting bench. Hope this helps.
Jon

[The Reloader]

Thanx very much for your response. That is pretty much what i was trying to say. I of course read about it and I just asked a question which I was still curious about after reading.

[Rick in Oregon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headspace_(firearms)

[sharptailhunter]

Reloader,

I hope I didn't come across as arrogant or as being a jerk. I do have to compliment you on your videos as far as the production part goes. The video quality is great and I like the use of the pop ups. And, obviously you can shoot well, that was a good group you shot out of a big gun.

I think once you understand some principles more, it will open up a whole new realm of reloading. Headspace is one of those principles. More importantly, I always encourage people to think beyond what we're taught. And that goes for all things in life, not just reloading. For example, you mentioned in your video that you never want to get lube on the shoulder of the case or you will get dents. True, excessive amounts of lube there can cause dents. But, think about the spray on case lubes, or the way I do it, which is I mix Lee case lube in rubbing alcohol then spray it all over my brass that's in a zip lock bag and then I shake em tell they're all covered. I do it that way because everything gets a light coating, even inside the necks. It's a lot faster and I get better case to die interfacing, i.e. no sticking whatsoever. Of course, I came about doing it this way by thinking that there has to be a better way than the traditional roll each case, brush each neck way that I had read about. Plus it's the cheapest way I have found to do it. I'm not cheap, but I don't spend when I can save.

So, it's when we really think about what's going on that we can know what needs to be done. For example, neck sizing... You were sort of right. When a case is fired, the neck first expands, seals the against the chamber, bullet leaves, case cools some, shrinks some, blah blah. But, it's not at the right diameter anymore. The Lee collet die actually compresses the neck, not expands it. It compresses it against a mandrel. It does that so the neck will have the proper tension to hold a new bullet. Some of the questions that come about from that could be: Does only the neck really get sized or does any other part of the case. If I am only resizing the neck, how many times can I do that before I can load or extract a case from the chamber? If a case expands to fit the chamber exactly and we don't full length size it, then why after a few firings that way, do cases become hard to load/extract? Those are the prinicple one can really find enlightening to learn about. I think that's sort of what R.I.O was talking about and I know it's what I'm trying to say. Nobody is bagging on you or trying to make you feel bad. Now get to the reloading bench and tell us what you have learned about headspace and bullet seating with your rifles, I'm honestly curious to see what you figure out.

[The Reloader]

Lol thanx for replying! I guess i felt like YOU thought I was being arrogant. And Now I totally understand what your saying. I believe I did open up a whole new demention of reloading. I wish they made reloading books for these in depth processes. The common manuals just give you basics pretty much. And thank you very much for you comments on my videos. I did make them for beginners because when i started out there was no videos out there in depth like mine and I promised my self that when i learn I will make a video of what I wanted to see. When I have a good rap around the next "demention" of reloading I will make another video for the true "accuratewayz" Thanx again bud! Good to meet someone on here like you!!

[Rick in Oregon]

I wish they made reloading books for these in depth processes. The common manuals just give you basics pretty much.

Oh but they DO make such books, you just have to know where to look:



The inside intro page sez it all:



The book covers virtually EVERYTHING you need for precision handloads and shooting them in your rifle. I've used mine for many years, and still refer to it quite often. The next edition is not ready yet; just talked to them two weeks ago. They've promised to let me know ahead of time when it's coming out, and I've already said I'll post it here when that happens, so don't call and bug them.....they've had enough folks asking already. They've been busy with the move/merge with Brownells.

The authors are well known and respected, you may have heard of one of them:



Besides a few good manuals from the bullet manufacturers, this is the single best source of printed information of advanced precision shooting and handloading I'm aware of. I highly recommend it to all who frequent this forum.

http://www.sinclairintl.com

[The Reloader]

I will most positively get the book when it comes out thank so much for the info. I'm at Cabelas in Hartford CN prolly 2 times a week (i don't even know why since half the time I don't have money to buy ne thing) But anyway Im surprised they don't have this book there!! Thanx for the info!!