problems reloading with once fired brass

[shotgunred50]

I have been trying to reload some .204 ammo for my Model one sales AR-15 in .204 ruger. I have been very succesful with using new brass but I recently tried some loads using my once fired brass. I use a RCBS full length die set and it seems that the brass has been fire formed and the base of the case shoulders has expanded too much for the rounds to fully chamber. The bolt will not close all the way even when trying the forward assist. They are simply too big. I hope that some of you guys have some suggestions for solving my problem.

[DoubleUp]

Are you sure your sizer die is sizing enough to bump the shoulder back? Take a fired empty case and turn your sizer down an eighth turn at the time until you get the case where it will allow the bolt to go into battery. You may need to get one of the available gauges from Hornady, etc. to verify, but since you will be full length resizing with the AR on every loading you should be able to get it to work by just screwing your die in a little at the time. I think an AR needs a shoulder bump of not less than about .003, but some of these more knowledgeable folks will be along shortly to help you out.

[Rick in Oregon]

Good advice above. Another thing to consider: When loading for gas guns, it's usually a good idea to use Small Base Dies for this very reason. It may not be the shoulder moving forward, it could also be the base of the cases have expanded just a tad too much to fully chamber, as semi-autos almost always have more generous chamber dimensions that target or varmint bolt guns (not always, but usually) and the fired brass swells just enough to cause difficult chambering.

But it would also be a good idea to check the headspace on the fired brass vs. new brass using the Hornady Headspace Tool (formerly offered by Stoney Point). If you don't have one, Sinclair and the other mailorder houses all carry it, and it's a good addition to your tool chest in the gun room. Between checking headspace and the Small Base Die, you should be in good shape for your AR.

RCBS and the others all make Small Base Dies for semi-autos and lever guns....check it out before going too much further.

[Bill K]

Think the advise of getting a small base set of dies for your reloading of cases going into a semi-auto (HDR - Homeland defense rifle) is what you need. A standard set if fine or single shot and bolt guns, but not HDR's. They need sized fully. That will end your problems, RCBS and others have such specialty dies.. Bill K

[204 AR]

I hate to be the dissenter, but try turning in your regular fl die down a little at a time and try that before buying a small base die. I load for half a dozen AR's, including a 204 and 2 223 AI's, and have never needed a small base die. If you screw the die down till the press cams over a little I bet it will work.

[verminator3]

I hate to be the dissenter, but try turning in your regular fl die down a little at a time and try that before buying a small base die. I load for half a dozen AR's, including a 204 and 2 223 AI's, and have never needed a small base die. If you screw the die down till the press cams over a little I bet it will work.

I agree, I own 5 AR's 2 Garands and a M1A which I load for, I have never used a Small Base die in my life. Give your die 1/8 turn and go shooting. FYI some of my 223 are run in a full auto, Never skips a beat. Thats my 2 cents

[Rick in Oregon]

During my infatuation phase with the AR platform some time ago, I built up quite a few of the old Colt SP-1's in various configurations, my favorite was the one we used "over there", the XM177E2, now very similar to a M4, but with the 5.5" supressor/F-hider.

During all that time, going through volumes of ammo firing rock-n-roll at running jack rabbits, and long loading sessions at the bench, I never used a small base die either.....BUT two friends who had non-Colt AR's absolutely required the SB dies, or no reloaded case would ever chamber, no matter how hard they tried to persuade the forward assist with vigor. Turning down the F/L die was an exercise in frustration, only the SB die solved the issue.....in those particular weapons.

It just depends on your rifle and how it was chambered. If you need a SB die, nothing else will suffice, even turning down the FL die you have now. You'll just have to experiment to find out.......maybe you'll get lucky.

[hemiallen]

I believe , especially if you aren't a seasoned reloader ( I am learning stuff after 40 years of reloading) you need to get something like a LE Wilson chamber tool. It is a rod with a 204 chamber cut, on the bullet end it is made to tell if the case is too long ( if it sticks out) and at the head end there are 2 heights, one for minimum chamber depth, one for max.

Drop fired , unsized case in the tool and you can see if the shoulder needs to be set back with the die, AND if the base of the case will be too big to fit the chamber, which is where, if you already are truly FL sizing and camming the single stage over, you may well need a small base die for brass to fit this AR. With that said, a small base die, IMHO, is the last thing to try before you either use the gauge or use a mike to measure the brass that doesn't fit.

I am currently sending back a 6ppc upper that the chamber is o.010" larger than sized brass, and after 5 firings the brass is toast.


And as Rick eluded to, every gun is different, and an AR is NOT a gun to learn reloading on, since you can't feel tightness of a too big case like a bolt or break open gun.


Hope this helps, and let us know your experience level to reloading, it really helps to know if a book is needed to explain , or you already know how to reload and know what I have posted.... Butt... everyone learns from posts like this.


Good luck

Allen

[Bill K]

On any HDR (Homeland defense rifle) rather than AR (which our politicians like to call Assualt rifles, rather than the Amalite rifle it was meant to be. You may well get alongwith a standard die touching the ram, but then again if that does not do it you need the small base die.
Also remember is you are just pleasure shooting, fine. But if you want this for homeland defense, personal protection, you want that weapon to operate without a hitch in either loading or unloading a fired case, especially if the case head ruptures and leaves most of the brass stuck in the chamber. I know I want my weapon to work without a hitch. 28 years of being a cop on the street, is what makes me think that way.. Bill K

[hemiallen]

Good point.

If I were to load for defensive use or for dangerous game, I would do what I do on MOST of my hunting rifles, which is to use NEW brass. On most of my rifles new brass shoots as well or close enough to once fired brass reloads, and new brass is ALWAYS undersized below what any FL die can reform them to, although I have never used a small base die, but I suspect it brings them to new brass size.


Defensive ammo that you have to trust your life to should not need to be more than 100 rds....IMHO, so the cost of new brass isn't an issue to most......


And thanks for your service, Bill.


Allen

[Rick in Oregon]

And thanks for your service, Bill.

+1 for that.

Another thing to consider on this subject (and from my former LE experience also), it's strongly advised to ONLY use factory ammo for personal defense, weather on the street, or in an emergency situation. In court later, it's been the norm for any DA to crucify defendents that used "home-made ammo" that they infer you made to be even more lethal than what you could have purchased.... (yeah, I know...... ).

More than one guy has regretted carrying handloads in his CCW in both criminal and civil court. Just something else to consider, not to mention the fact that factory ammo is usually always 100% reliable in a semi-auto platform and eliminates one more thing to fret about when the action starts, or later in court. JMO

[Wrangler John]

My problem is between two .204 Ruger chambers. If I fire brass in barrel "A" it won't chamber in Barrel "B" even when full length sized. Only about a .001" difference between the chambers at the head and body junction. It's just enough to stop the bolt from closing. So I tried different dies on hand, a bump die etc, to no avail. Finally ordered a Forester .204 Ruger Full Length die and that did it, all brass switches between barrels. Forester usually has dies that are a tad closer to minimum dimensions. Maybe sending along my own chamber reamer would be a good idea next time so they are all cut with the same tooling. But for now this works, as does using different brands of brass and keeping them separate for each barrel. It's always something.

[hemiallen]

I have heard that, now that you mention it, good point Rick.


I did a similar thing, I have 3 ea 204's.


Gave one to my FIL to play with, a rem 700 and an ar at home. I have seperate ctg boxes and will keep the brass seperate, and have dies for all 3 guns.


Ordering some commercial WCC brass soon so I have win-NT for the 700 with an PSS stock, WCC for my VS 223, and dies for both guns.


If I read your post correctly, one chamber needs .001" shorter shoulders to fit, and you are resizing ALL ammo to the shorter chamber? I suspect, if true, you will have brass failure down the road.... more likely case head seperation from shortening the brass and firing on the deeper chamber several times.

Allen

[Bill K]

Rick makes some very good points. So far, however, I also live in a rural area that seems to thus far still like their Law-enforcement officers. For duty, we always carried factory ammo, for many reasons, some of which are the court cases that support factory ammo over Reload. But for personal use I use both and never look back, nor had any bad experience with reloads in over 55 years of reloading. Even tho manys guides/outfitters prefer factory ammo, in hunting all over this planet and on some critters that can bite back, never had a problem with good reloads and bullets, either. So it is a very personal choice.
Regardless I want my ammo to function and that is why on semi-autos a small base die (if needed) should be, so that ammo will enter and exit without a hitch, your weapon. This is a very good thread, with good opinions from all. Bill K

[Rick in Oregon]

If I read your post correctly, one chamber needs .001" shorter shoulders to fit, and you are resizing ALL ammo to the shorter chamber? I suspect, if true, you will have brass failure down the road.... more likely case head seperation from shortening the brass and firing on the deeper chamber several times.Allen

Allen, I belive what Wrangler is saying is that the O.D. of the base of the fired brass is .001" too large to allow the bolt to close, hence the need for segregating the brass for each rifle or the use of a small base die.

I have four 204's, and keep the brass segregated for each rifle. Each rifle has 400 rounds in 100 round boxes stored in .50 ammo cans...no chance for mix-ups and seems to be working very well. Let's face it, if we fireform nice new brass for a rifles chamber, the last thing we want to do is fire it in another rifle other than the rifle it was fired in originally. 400 Rounds is about right for a day of either PD or squirrel shooting too, so it's a handy quantity.

Bill: Like you, I've hunted my entire life only with handloads, never had a misfire, never missed a beat, and every critter brought home was shot with a handload. My safe is stuffed with rifles, and at last count, only my rimfires have had the misfortune of having to deal with factory ammo. (Now my CC weapon is another story altogether.)