My handloads stink up the entire West Coast...

[goosebrown]

Hi all. I reloaded 308 for years, years ago. I was good and my loads were spot on. I have been out of reloading for 20 years and now am back and working on my 204.

My loads are so bad the groups look like patterning buck shot. Almost...

Facts:
Savage 12 and Remington 700 SPS Varmint. Both with 1 in 12 twist.
Hornady factory loads 32gr and 40gr both shoot well with consistent tight groups <1" @ 100 yards (We aren't really that good yet... more practice...)

Reloading Products:
Benchmark powder 28gr (tried other loads, this seems to be bestish...)
Remington Benchrest small rifle primers
Barnes Varmint Grenade 26gr.
Hornady brass.

Reloading Process:
Tumble
Decap and resize
Clean primer pocket
Sort brass - I weigh every case in group into sets of 10 all within on grain of each other.
Measure and trim - No trim necessary as all cases are under max for spec.
Chamfer inner and outer case necks
Prime
Load powder - I check the load on every third case or so. No variations so far all within .2gr.
Seat bullet - Seat to 2/1000ths under max case length. No crimp.
Fire.
Cry.

I am sure it is my reloading that is the problem because I believe if they were OK they would produce about the same consistancy as the factories so by extension if the rifles were bad, they would be bad with the factories as well as the handloads.

OK so does anyone have any ideas? I want to load H4895 in some 243s. Should I try that instead of Benchmark? Change primers? Better with a heavier bullet? 32gr? Are the flat bases problematic? They sometimes seem to shave a little as they are seated.

Any help welcome!

[Glen]

I would guess it to be the bullets. Not knocking Barnes but their VG's haven't been that great in the 204. Try some 35gr Bergers if you want to stay light with a HP style bullet. I think anything under the 32gr'ers are too light for consistent accuracy. JMHO

[Joe O]

Two things about the brass.I.deburr the flash holes,and square up the case mouths with your trimmer.You want a uniform length of neck for consistant bullet tention.As suggested,go to a heavier bullet ie,32,35,39gr.Seat the bullets out to 2.350 OAL,and go up and down from there.I think weighing the bullets is more important than weighing the cases.Sorting the bullets by orgive length and setting your seating die accordingly for uniform distance off the lands,helps.Most 204s have long throats.I want one bullet diameter seated in the neck,+/-.005.

[Rick in Oregon]

Bullets....I agree. Try some Sierra, Nosler or Hornady 32's or the Sierra 39 BK. In my four 204's, these bullets perform quite well using good precision handloading methods as it appears you already are.

The only rifle I've had good luck with the VG's is their 30gr .224" Hornet bullet. That puppy really makes my K-Hornet scream....our rock chucks really hate 'em. Try some poly-tipped 32's, it'll most likely give you a smile next time out.

[BabaOriley]

Load powder - I check the load on every third case or so. No variations so far all within .2gr.

I'm a pretty novice handloader, but when you say "within .2gr"', is that +/-.2gr? Meaning a load of 27.8gr through 28.2gr is acceptable? Or, you may have meant 27.9-28.1gr. With such a light bullet, I'd guess a .4gr difference in powder charger might cause a noticeably different POI.

I haven't tried the 26gr bullets yet. Hope you figure it out.

[goosebrown]

OK I am so impressed. This is exactly the info I wanted. I appreciate it very much.

What I hear is try 32gr bullets. OK.

Maybe be careful of the powder loads. I *DO* mean that if I aim for 28gr, I am allowing 27.8 or 28 or 28.2 Pretty much 90% I have weighed have been at 28 on the money. It would add a lot of time to the process and I am willing to do that but want to try other solutions first.

Weigh bullets. OK, can do. I weighed about 20 of the VGs and they were 26 on the money each and every time so I didn't weigh past that.

Proposal: Anyone want to trade 10 bullets of whatever sort for 10 25gr VGs? I'd love to get a chance to try other bullets without springing for a box of each and you all may want to try VGs. If you're interested, mail me and I can drop them in the mail tomorrow.

(Someday I want to make bullet and powder samplers like big boxes of lead bonbons.... Little IMR 4895, little H 4895, some Sierra, some Hornady....)

[Joe O]

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/20 ... let-sales/

Try the above site for bullets.


http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/20 ... let-sales/

[OldTurtle]

I will agree that your bullet selection would be the most probable culprit.... but,,,,,

I check the load on every third case or so. No variations so far all within .2gr

for someone used to loading .308s,,, the .2gr powder difference probably doesn't seem to be much... In a small volume cartridge case like the .204, that's quite a variation...

I routinely check mine and if I'm finding a .1gr variation, I start all over with that tray..Most of my powders for my .204s are very small polished ball powders and they meter very consistently, so it's rare to have a +/- situation..

[jo191145]

Benchmark can be a great powder. Very often it will burn too clean with high velocity loads tho. Copper fouling is the end result of too clean.
It also has small nodes. .2 + or - just ain't gonna cut it with BM or most other powders.

If your shaving bullets theres a problem. Find it and fix it. Good luck

[goosebrown]

So bullet shaving. The inside case neck is chamfered but the VG is really flat on the bottom. It doesn't want to seat by itself. I go slow and do my best, but it simply shaves occasionally. Dies are hornady.

Should I think of an expander to open the throat just a hint? Other thing I was thinking is boat tales since they would line up to seat better.

Got the message on powder. I will weigh every case for a bit after the charge.

The bullet exchange guy? No lead free and I think that is how I want to go since I am right on the edge of the condor zone. Rather keep one stock of ammo than two for different locations.

[Rick in Oregon]

Get a VLD style chamfering tool from Sinclair or Holland. It makes seating any flatbase bullet a snap, and you'll notice the difference on your targets, I kid you not.

Since I started using my Holland VLD tool, under 10X magnification, seated bullets show zero signs of any jacket shaving....absolutely zip.

Oh, and try the Nosler BTLF (Ballistic Tip Lead-Free) bullets in your 204......they're as accurate and explosive on ground squirrels as the regular BT's.

[M_D]

I have shot good groups with Benchmark and even decentl ones with the 26g bullets (1/2"), although I have not worked much with the 26 grain VG yet. I would say the largest part of your problem is inconsistency with the powder charge. You'll also have to find the best amount of powder for the various bullets, beside keeping it consistent. Since Rick mentioned a 10x magnifier, I would suggest getting one and also use it to check the neck chamfers before the bullets are seated, it may suprise you. Any cutting tool will leave a burr, how much depends on how sharp it is, among other things. I prefer to tumble my cases wet in an abrasive plastic media after trimming, which does a nice job of making a smooth radius on the inside and outside of the case neck, plus it is less labor intensive.

[bow shot]

VLD chamfer tool: Amen on that one! (and just about anything that Glen, Baba O, Rick in O, or the other long- lived wise ones have to say..). Bullet shaving headaches be gone!

Powder charge variation: .2gr Benchmark makes a lot difference w/ my .204 (Savage 12 VLP). 26.8gr is great, and 26.4/27.0 are poor for my weapon.

Keep an eye on barrel cleanliness too! I don't know if this is anyone else's experience, but I carbon foul quite badly with the Benchmark. I also notice that my groups "come together after about 20 shots after a thourough scouring.

I'd guess that's because I found a good recepie when the barrel happened to be at that point of fouling, but the same load won't "work" when I'm spanking clean. Probably be a different case If I had a custom barrel... that's just a guess.

[goosebrown]

OK trying out a lot of suggestions:

Weighed out each powder load exactly.
Weighed each bullet.
Weighed each case and grouped into groups.
Chamfered each neck then polished with a diamond dremel since I don't have the VLD tool, but the hornady with 3 blades.
Bought 32gr Noslers and 32g hornady vmax with H4895 and Benchmark
Trying H4895 powder with each as well as with the 26gr VGs again.

Thank you all for the comments. I appreciate it.

During bullet seating I saw NO shavings which can only be good compared to the last batches.

We see on Friday morning!

[Wrangler John]

Horsey poop! Those Barnes Varmint Grenade bullets are among the most accurate on the market. Here's the deal, mine shoot best with RL-10x around 25.2 grains, and either the Federal 205 Match or Remington 9-1/2 BR primers.

I use Winchester cases, I don't even bother weighing them (nothing to gain), just deburr the flash hole and uniform the primer pocket, then I full length size, trim, prime and load. I crank them out on a progressive press, (weigh every 20th charge or so) and they shoot under .5" even when I screw up (I know more about horsey poop than shooting).

The secret is seating depth, the Barnes Varmint Grenade needs to be seated well off the lands, I use factory cartridge OAL. Experiment with OAL but I never go closer than .020" off the lands. Use a comparator, and chamber depth gauge (even Sinclair's works) to set seating depth, because while the Barnes VG's length will vary by a lot base to tip, they are spot on from base to ogive, that little bit of extra tip sticking out doesn't seem to mean anything, as long as your seating stem isn't contacting the tip. So far both Redding and RCBS stems work fine for .204 VG's. I've segregated them by weight and length, and there is no difference whatever in the group size. I've mixed brass between Hornady and Winchester, didn't make a wits difference on the target worth considering. You don't need to worry about chamfering with a VLD tool, I see little shavings of jacket occasionally, no problem - groups the same, squirrel dies.

My Savage PTA has a Shilen Select Match 1:12" barrel with a standard SAAMI chamber that I screwed on, or up (depending on how you look at it). So it's perty standard stuff. If it ain't the ammo, then maybe it's the rifles or a bit of both.

With the Savage rifles I found that groups will be tight and then toss fliers here and there if the action screws aren't torqued properly. So, I use a torque gauge and set the front action screw to 25 - 30 in lbs, the middle screw the same, and vary the rear screw from 10 in lbs upward until the groups shrink. If the action has two screws, and a huge magazine inlet, set them at 25 in lbs as per the Savage factory. The entire action behind the rear pillar (or screw) can be free floated, so the tang doesn't contact the stock, as a last resort. I know my barrel nuts are torqued to specification because I set them myself (30-40 ft lbs) same for headspace.

Remington actions can bend with a surprisingly little amount of too much moxie on the action screws. Torque 'em too much and the action will flex more than Aunt Ethyl's girdle at a pie eating contest. This plagued me for years until I pillar bedded my stocks and used a torque gauge (40X actions are a little better but need a center hole drilled and tapped for maximum consistency).

Then use a barrel lube and keep fouling down. Copper fouling will - well, foul things up. Wow, My fingers are tired. May the Fairy of Ammo Bliss visit you this night.