Need advice RE: flattened primers and mega-accurate load

[Wrangler John]

That load is very close to what I use, 25.2 grains of RL-10x with a 26 grain Varmint Grenade, Hornady or Winchester brass and a Remington 7-1/2 BR primer. That load is well under maximum in the Barnes data. Your primers look okay. The Remington 7-1/2 BR primers have a heavier cup than the Federal 205M and still show a bit of cratering. I headspaced my Savage Precision Target Action myself and kept it minimal as possible with the PT&G headspace gauge, using a Shilen barrel. I full length size for the first firing and neck size thereafter.

Firing pin protrusion should be somewhere between .050" and .060", I keep mine at .055". This can be measured with a Brownells protrusion gauge or a dial caliper with care.

In some cases too large of a firing pin will cause excessive cratering, so some smiths recommend bushing the bolt down and installing a .062' - .068" firing pin. My Savage Precision Target Actions already are fitted with .062" firing pins from the factory, so I assume your 12VL is too.

Pressure signs, or primer failure with small rifle primers is usually evidenced by small pin holes blowing through the edge of the cup radius, blanking where a hole is blown through the firing pin dent, or leakage around the primer with corresponding black smudge. There may or may not be excessive flattening. The pin hole will result in gas cutting a dimple in the bolt face, blanking can ruin the firing pin or blow debris into the bolt. This can occur with a soft or thin primer cup at normal pressure levels, say using a Remington 6-1/2 primer in a .223 or .204 Ruger. None of this is evident in your photos, so the primers appear to handling the pressure normally. I don't think you have any problem.

[jo191145]

....... FWIW, COL of both rifles is limited by the magazine, so it's nothing to do with headspace directly.

??????????????? LOL..!!...

Yeah, I just realized how stupid that was. I'll shut up and go sit in the corner now.

Anyway, my point was that my problem wasn't too much headspace, it was too little.

OK Fred, I won't argue the semantics of your previous statement. If for whatever reason you now feel you do not have enough headspace necksizing is obviously not the way to cure that. Necksizing is not capable of adjusting headspace. Shoulder bumping or FL are the answer.

[Bayou City Boy]

Yeah, I just realized how stupid that was. I'll shut up and go sit in the corner now.

Anyway, my point was that my problem wasn't too much headspace, it was too little.

OK Fred, I won't argue the semantics of your previous statement. If for whatever reason you now feel you do not have enough headspace necksizing is obviously not the way to cure that. Necksizing is not capable of adjusting headspace. Shoulder bumping or FL are the answer.

LOL..!!

I don't know about you, jo191145, but trying to sort it all out in my mind made me kinda' dizzy....

JMO - BCB

[jo191145]

Don't worry BCB. Since 8.30pm Jan. 19th when the election results started trickling in I popped the top on a bottle of Carolina Sweet Tea.
Been feeling a little dizzy ever since Never thought I'd ever say this, God Bless Massachucetts!!!

[Bayou City Boy]

Don't worry BCB. Since 8.30pm Jan. 19th when the election results started trickling in I popped the top on a bottle of Carolina Sweet Tea.
Been feeling a little dizzy ever since Never thought I'd ever say this, God Bless Massachucetts!!!

You are definitely right on the Massachusetts issue. It restores my faith in mankind. I think..... I hope its just the beginning of the housecleaning that needs to be done.

I keep thinking all day today that I'll wake up and find it was just a semi-wet dream. Even with this turn in politics, I'll still be ready if Texas decides to secede if the BS gets too deep, however... Sam Houston must have had a premonition of what was coming in 2008 when the Texas constitution was written back in the 1800's. It contains a provision making secession legal if deemed necessary by the Texas legislature.

Maybe there are still folks around who won't sell this country out over a few crumbs they can pick up. I wonder if Obama will buy an old GM truck to drive....?

-BCB

[jo191145]

I live in Connecticut (Southern Massachucetts ) Been here my entire life. Liberalism has been my neighbor since birth. Luckily my parents raised me to think on my own any way I felt appropriate. As long as I had and understood "RESPECT" any ideology was OK. Sure they where old school Europeans but they would never get in the way of what the "USA" meant to ""us, their children". As the youngest child I watched my older siblings embrace the 60's culture. "Love the music and wished I'd been old enough for Woodstock myself. I'm no Angel conservative but...
I was the first registered Repub in the family at 18. 30 years later all my Siblings and parents are registerd Repubs. Simple logic will prevail.


I seriously seriously seriously and sincerely doubt most of the country can even fathom or appreciate what a huge upset this election REALLY is unless you've lived in Southern New England during the last twenty years or so.

Massachucetts, who's citys and well to do elite are chock full of partisan liberals stepped up to the plate "once again" in history and fired a shot heard around the world!!!! I'm 48yrs old now and never would have expected to see this day in history to ever begin in Massachucetts twice in this countrys history. I spend quite a bit of time in Mass with some of the most elitist liberals in their party. ITS NOT FUN!!!!! Connecticut is'nt much different. Living in a "Blue" State is not fun for anyone that once dreamed of living like "Grizzly Adams" as a child.

DON'T let this single gun shot go unheeded or unnoticed around the rest of the country where gunshots in the distance are commonplace!!!!!
This gunshot originated from a section of the country where shooting guns is frowned upon almost universally.!!!!!
If Massachucetts of all places can once again stand up for justice. The rest of this Great Country had better darn well follow suit!!!!!!!

Sorry mods. I've kept my nose fairly clean since joining. Just wanted to make sure the prairies, bottomlands,foothills and even the folks on the other side of the divide UNDERSTAND what REALLY transpired in Massachucetts on Jan 19th 2010.
Republican, Independant, Democrat, Conservative, Moderate, Liberal it matters not. The forefathers of this country just reached from their graves long enough to fire one more musketball. Will we hear it and pay reverence or dismiss it away as a distant, pesky, thunderclap????????

BCB If and when succession by Texas becomes necessarry. Leave the gates open for one Red Dodge pickup with blue plates on it.
I just survived and totally freakin conquered "Christmas in Mississippi" with my new Ladies family,not bad for a Yank Been to Houston once. Sam can't be totally stupid now can he, How many citys are named for just one man?????

[Wrangler John]

I noticed a flattening of the U.S. Capital dome from excessive pressure on Wednesday. Here in California our socialists in Sacramento are worrying if they are next. Let's see, $19 Billion in the hole already half-way through the budget year, stupid unconstitutional gun laws, unemployment near 15% and as high as 40% in the Central Valley due to a minnow taking water away from farmers, environmental laws that drive business out of state, and schools that can't teach. I wonder, should we vote them out too. November 2010, the perfect storm.

Jo 191145: Lots of cities in California are named for one person; San Francisco, San Jose, Santa Clara, San Miguel, etc. all Saints! Then there is Los Angeles named for Angels (actually named after the river Nuestra Señora de los Angeles de la Porciuincula, or The Town of Our Lady the Queen of Angels of the Little Portion officially it was listed as El Pueblo de la Reina de Los Angeles or City of the Queen of Angeles. I still wonder how with all those Saints and Angels abounding, we got into this degenerate mess?

[riflecrank]

Looks like an oversize firing pin hole to me. If you know someone with a index drill set you can check it. Disassemble the bolt and find the drill bit that just goes through the firing pin hole on the bolt face. Measure the diameter of the drill bit with a dial caliper and then measure the diameter of your firing pin. Savage uses a floating bolt head so I imagine that the clearance has to be bigger. I have bushed the bolts on couple of Remington 700's that had the problem. Here's a link to how its done.
http://www.bordenrifles.com/firing_pin_bush.pdf

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

I sent copies of those photos to Savage via snail mail. If they don't display an interest, I'll look into it myself.

I shot it again yesterday with exactly the same load. Temperature was ~5°F cooler than previous. Out of 10 rounds, a couple show slight cratering, five or six show very slight cratering, and the rest show none at all. I pitted those 10 rounds against 10 loaded with BL-C(2) with my previous "best accuracy" charge, 0.2 grains below where it previously began exhibiting cratering. Just like the Reloader rounds, some did, some didn't and some did just barely.

How odd.

Ballistically, BTW, the contest was a push. After the 3-shot miracle group, I was expecting the RL-10X to set the world on fire. I guess it was too good to be true after all. The BL-C(2)'s two 5-shot groups averaged just a touch tighter @200 yards (1.875" vs 2.375") but their RSD was almost identical (0.31xxxx...). Without a single near-flyer, the RL-10X would have had virtually an identical average group size but a smaller RSD. I think I need to try that again, maybe at a longer range.

[Wrangler John]

I sent copies of those photos to Savage via snail mail. If they don't display an interest, I'll look into it myself.

I shot it again yesterday with exactly the same load. Temperature was ~5°F cooler than previous. Out of 10 rounds, a couple show slight cratering, five or six show [[]very[/i] slight cratering, and the rest show none at all. I pitted those 10 rounds against 10 loaded with BL-C(2) with my previous "best accuracy" charge, 0.2 grains below where it previously began exhibiting cratering. Just like the Reloader rounds, some did, some didn't and some did just barely.

How odd.

Ballistically, BTW, the contest was a push. After the 3-shot miracle group, I was expecting the RL-10X to set the world on fire. I guess it was too good to be true after all. The BL-C(2)'s two 5-shot groups averaged just a touch tighter @200 yards (1.875" vs 2.375") but their RSD was almost identical (0.31xxxx...). Without a single near-flyer, the RL-10X would have had virtually an identical average group size but a smaller RSD. I think I need to try that again, maybe at a longer range.

Some did, some didn't, some just barely, sounds like variation in primer cups. Here's a photo of a fired primer from my rifle using 26 grain Varmint Grenades, 25.2 RL-10x and a Federal 205 primer:



Note the neat crater around the firing pin strike, perfectly normal for this primer. This is a Savage Precision Target Action with the small .062" firing pin. If I use a Remington 7-1/2 it will disappear, I'm just trying to use up my supply of Federal primers before switching to the Remington. For this cartridge, and the .223 Remington, I prefer the 7-1/2 because of the stouter cup. If there is a problem it's the primers.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

I found a web site describing the differences in the appearance of primers mangled by a sloppy firing pin hole versus excessive pressure versus excess head space and mine definitely look like sloppy firing pin hole type.

FWIW, I'm fiddling with Christoper Long's 'optimum barrel time' method to determine a start-point for a new .308 load. I figured as long as I was there I'd work backwards with the loads from my .204 and see how they "score". Since both these loads have proved so accurate, if there's any validity to the OBT calculations, I'd expect my them to match pretty closely. According to my QuickLoad data, the RL-10X load is exactly on top of one of his harmonic 'nodes' and the BL-C(2) load is off by 1/10th of a grain. Sure would have saved a lot of trial and error if I'd worked up an OBT prediction first, then gone straight to a "production" round. It'll be interesting to see if it's that effective for the .308.

[Ahab]

I dont care how light or heavy I load my 204 all the primers do it factory loads too. I cant understand why but they arent flat so I am not really worried

Same here with my Savage Model 16! Factory say's it's in spec. Who can I send the bolt in to be bushed?

[Wrangler John]

You could check with Sharp Shooter's Supply they are experts in the Savage. See if they'll do the work, or if you can swap the bolt head, firing pin and bolt retaining pin for one with the small diameter firing pin. http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/ or (419) 695-3179.

One of the best in the business is Greg Tannel http://www.gretanrifles.com/services.asp he does firing pin bushing in 2 to 3 days turnaround time. Call to be certain he does the Savage bolt. (970) 878-5421

[savage12fv]

i have the same cratering problem. My gunsmith told me if accuracy is good savage says there are no safty issues so i didnt worry about it

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

I got a form letter back from Savage. They checked the block that says "send it back to our service department if you want and we'll check it out."

I'm underwhelmed by their customer service. Rather than send it to them and be without the rifle, not even knowing if they'll do anything to it, I think I'd sooner have it bushed and know it'll come back right. I've found a company that'll apply Melonite to a rifle bore so I see some down-time in this rifle's future anyway.