vv133 and the 204 equals easy success

[rayfromtx]

I bought a Pacnor barrel recently for a Savage target action. The barrel came with no freebore. I found that I was touching the lands with the base of the bullet below the neck/shoulder junction. I tried loads of benchmark and bl-c(2) with 32 gr. v-max bullets and benchmark with 35 gr. bergers. Everything I tried gave me 1/2 moa. I was very dissappointed with this performance. I shoot a fully custom benchrest rifle that will shoot .1s and .2s. I wanted to get this one to shoot 1/4 moa.

The rifle has a 28" pacnor select match barrel with a straight contour at 1.20" from end to end. It has a 11 twist with polygonal rifling. The barrel itself weighs in at 7.5 lb. The stock is a Shehane ST1000 tracker stock. The target action is a Savage with the trigger set to just over 8 oz. The scope is a Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20x50mm with target turrets. Total weight is 15.5 lbs. Total cost was around 2000$.

After around 150 rounds of trying, I said to heck with it and decided to try the vv133 that I use in my benchrest rig. I got on this site and found a load on a recent thread. Nothing matched my situation exactly but I decided to try 26.7 grains with my 35 grain bergers. No long work up or playing it safe. Disclaimer to follow:

ALWAYS WORK UP FROM LOWER CHARGE, REPEAT START LOW AND WORK UP!

I seated the bullets jammed .010" into the lands. The 133 filled the case more than the benchmark, which I consider to be a good thing for accuracy. I loaded 15 rounds and went out to my backyard range. I had windflags out and they were squirrely as could be, sometimes the tails were pointing straight up and other times they would switch 180 degrees(flipping over the top instead of swinging around). I was patient with them and at 150 yards I shot two 3/8" groups for my goal of 1/4 moa. I believe I've found my load. Velocities ranged from 4150 to 4190 fps with no signs of pressure. I think the long barrel and slow powder gave me a boost in velocity as well as the polygonal rifling. I may mess with it a little more, but I won't be sending my barrel back to pacnor to have it reamed to add freebore.

It is not safe to find a load without working up but it worked out well for me this time. I have done a lot of studying on this caliber and there is load data out there that helped me feel safe in doing this but it is not a recommended practice.

[glenn asher]

I suspect that the polygonal bore helped ease pressures a little bit, but I applaud you for the safety concerns you've shown. In any event, good shooting and keep up the good work. I hope you're safe from the squirrelly weather down your way!

[jo191145]

Congratulations on your accuracy. Can't argue with .380 at 150yds. Sounds like a nice rifle you've got there.
FWIW I haven't done a lot of work with 133 but I have done some. 133 is a fast burning powder for the 204 by most accounts. Of course burn rate charts are notoriously screwy.
You are definately near the top of the scale with that load I'd say. Pressures build real fast with 133 so be careful if you decide to tweak higher.

I remember a post by someone concerning a Pac-Nor barrel with no freebore. Is this the same one?
Either way I'm glad to hear its shooting well.

[BunGhoLeo]

I've been eyeing those polygonal barrels from pacnor. They have an amazing effect in handguns, ALA H&K

I've always wondered how well they'd do in a rifle. They are a dream to clean! I wonder how the numbers would turn up with a jump to the lands, and a slight bump in powder.

[rayfromtx]

jo191145- This is the same one. It took me a while to get it to shoot. I'm sure I'll have some freebore after several hundred rounds. I bought 1000 of the 35 gr. bergers on sale at midway. I'd like to get the heavier bergers to shoot but I'll have to wait for a little throat erosion first. I think my next tweak will be a little more jamb. It seems to like to shoot dirty also. It is definitely different than any other rifle I've owned. I like it. Being 15 1/2 lbs makes the recoil a non event. The report is similar to my 22 pistol. I may try to push the velocity above 4200 but I doubt it will help the accuracy.

It has been said that the only problem with this caliber is the availability of custom made bullets. The Bergers are good bullets but I think benchrest quality bullets would make this rifle shoot dots.

[jo191145]

Ray
Is it true the 35 Berg is actually below the neck shoulder junction or the 32 V-max? If its the 35 WOW that is definately zero freebore. Whats your COL with the 35?

The Bergs will shoot dots. Does'nt happen very often for me with factory tubes but I have seen it. When they're not shootin dots I do not blame the bullet as long as I'm using the weight my barrel prefers. Bore condition (fouling) and neck tension seem to be the two big factors in accuracy for the 204. Hornady pills on the other hand seem to give me copper fouling.

Your polygonal barrel with jammed bullets should help much in overcoming those two hurdles.

Have you looked into BR quality bullets? 6mmBR.com has a .20 cal info page with some sources for custom pills. I think I read Don Umussig is out of the twenty business but I could be totally wrong on that.

Between you and Skipper I've been really contemplating a tight chambered 204 lately. If I could hit a paintball at 200yds with regularity I should be able to give those 6mm guys a run for thier money

Keep us up to date.

[rayfromtx]

jo91145-

I measure the 35 gr. berger at .604 in length. I measure the base to the shoulder/neck junction at 1.672. If I seated the bullet to the bottom of the neck, I would have a total length of 2.276.

If I load to touch the lands, I have a total length of 2.207. That means my bullet base is .069 into the shoulder below the bottom of the neck. I am jambing it .010 and it is still .059 down into the case.

With a stony point comparator I measure 1.892 with the berger 35 gr.

The 39 gr. bks measure .740 and the 40 gr. vmax measure .750. I won't be shooting them soon. They would be almost 1/4 inch into the shoulder. They would be into the body of the case actually.

I also have this issue of the winchester brass being .017 short of the chamber length. I have the headspace set tighter than saami by a few thousnds and it still stretches the brass .014 upon fire forming. I use sizing wax on the body to try to avoid stretch at the web area.

This gun and brass have been real screwy but it's shooting dots now. Maybe it's the nut on the trigger.

[jo191145]

2.207 Once again WOW!
It makes me wonder how Pac-Nor chambered it. Perhaps they had thier 204 reamer reground and someone cut those annoying flutes off in the front

Beyond custom pills theres only one bullet with less bearing length than the 35 Berg. The 30 Berg.
Good Luck and Good Shootin

[rayfromtx]

I thought I had found the sweet load but alas I must keep searching. I loaded up 40 of the 35 bergers with the 26.7 grains of n133. What worked well last week was inconsistent today. I shot 3/4" groups at 150. The speeds were really fast too. I tried both 205m and cci br4 primers. There seemed to be no difference. Speeds ranged from 4165 to 4254. Most were in the 4220 to 4240 range. One of the 40 showed a small ejector mark. I think going up on the load is out of the question.

In fairness to the load, the mirage was hammering me. I had a fishy tail wind at around 12 mph and the mirage was boiling and switching and then a cloud would come over and kill it in the middle of my group, but there were some unexplained flyers that were worrisome. I was using the 100 yard benchrest target at 150 so with the mirage, aiming was a bitch. I will back down on the load a smidge and let y'all know what happens.

In the mean time I'm going to take my benchrest rig out to shoot this evening so I can feel better about myself. God I love having a range at home. Take a break in the AC. Go in and have lunch or grab some sherbet. Load indoors and go back out to shoot another group. God is good. All the time.

[jo191145]

Sorry Ray. Can't offer up a ton of info on Jammin.
I did try jamming 40 Noslers with Viht 135. Best results in an Audette ladder were found down low in the charge weights. .005 off the lands and .010 jammed were the best seating depths. Initially shot the Audette with .020 jam.
Total group size was under an inch at 200yds

If it were me I'd shoot an Audette ladder test. (150yds will be real tight) Pick the best node out of that and then try a seating depth test. On the bright side you will not need a lot of components for a seating depth test with that barrel

I shoot at home too. Yes God is good. Did go to the public range today. Arrived early and grabbed the left most bench.
No brass marks on my forehead today

[rayfromtx]

Well, I backed off on the load from 26.7 to 26.4 grains of vv n133. I trimmed all the brass, which had gotten inconsistent when I wasn't looking. About half the primer pockets have gotten loose after 4 firings but I loaded them up anyway. I took 40 out to the range in New Braunfels. I set up 6 windflags out to 200 yards.

My muzzle velocity with the 35 grain bergers dropped from mid 4200s to around 4170. The wind has quite an effect on these little bullets. The conditions were unfavorable for most of the day with mirage coming and going and the head wind switching from left to right. Seldom did two flags read the same. When ignoring the wind I would get almost 2" on my sighters. I shot several five shot groups, all at 200 yards. The results went like this.

There were a few kind of average groups of .82 and .91. There was one bad group at 1.18. That one followed the condition and I can't fault the gun as the vertical was only .354". The others had vertical around .5".

There were two groups of particular note. One was shot by a freind, Chris Whitman. He took his time watching the wind flags and mirage and without sighters and on a barrel with no cleaning for almost 80 rounds he shot a .564.

The other group was shot by a newcomer to benchrest who was waiting for the silhouette range to open up. He sat down to the bench at a time when a large cloud killed the mirage. The wind flags all read exactly the same with a right to left quartering wind at about 10 mph and steady. He had never shot free recoil before. He was used to his 308 with a bipod at 500 yards. His first shot hit the exact center of the mothball. The condition held and his second shot did not appear to make the hole bigger. The condition held and five of us stood around saying shoot it. The third shot did not appear to make the hole any bigger and the condition was still holding. We started getting louder saying shoot shoot shoot. He wasn't used to the Savage target action or trigger and locked it up twice. The condition still held(we were amazed). All of a sudden he shot and said "darn, I didn't mean to shoot. The hole printed off to the right. The condition held but was starting to look a little iffy. He put the fifth shot next to the first three. He got up saying how he liked the gun. In measuring the target, the first three shots went into a .115 group. The called flier made the group a .896. The last shot made the group without the flier, a very respectable .313. The total vertical including the flier was .220".

I think I have actually found the load for this rifle and have purchased 16 lbs of n133 for it. The problem seems to be the low bc of the 35 grain bergers. The wind tosses them back and forth. I'd like to try the 40 grain bergers but with no freebore I'll have to wait or redo the chamber. The accuracy did not fall off after 80 round which is very encouraging because cleaning this rifle is not fun. I have to cut the patches in half and they are still tight.

I would post pictures but we only had a few targets so we were putting four groups in different areas of a 5" target. We were mixing 20 cal and 6mm on the same targets just trying to find a place to shoot. We put up 4 benchrest targets and freinds just kept showing up and shooting on them in a new spot. Its funny to watch the hunters show up with their 15" targets and try to get on paper at 100 yards. There was a guy there with a new 50 cal. that must have put 10 rounds at 25 yards before he moved to 200 and started putting them all over the place. His holes were only slightly smaller than our groups. The only interesting rifle is an accurate rifle.

[jo191145]

Glad to hear its coming back around but not surprised by the accuracy. There are days when you just get it right and the 204 will one hole at 200 even with factory tubes.
Wind is usually not a factor for me. My home range is very well sheltered. I put 10rds of a forgotten load with 35Bergs into .8 at 200yds the day the remnants of Hurricane Katrina blew through town. In Ct it was a far cry from a hurricane but still gusting to 60mph. I was working loads for an upcoming egg shoot or I would'nt have been out there.

We should'nt pick on the guys with 15" targets (they're part of our fraternity) but they can be very amusing at the range. Last week the guy next to me spent two hours shooting at 3" bulls at 25yds with a scoped Remington 223 bolt action. He hit the bulls most of the time.
Because I use amplifying ear muffs I've heard people on several occassions asking the Range officers what me and my buddy are shooting at. They cannot see the little 1/4" red dots we use at 100yds and not many ever venture out that far.
One thing I can say though is in the short time I've been shooting at ranges I've never met anyone who's character I questioned. Us shooters just seem to be some nice people. God bless us all.

[rayfromtx]

I tried some 40 grain bergers with 25.5 gr. of n133. Accuracy was good but inconsistent. Velocity was around 3960 in hot weather. After 5 loadings with that hot load, the primer pockets were too loose and I had to toss the brass.

I was recently warned that the expansion I'm getting in the case head is excessive. This warning came after I just loaded up 200 rounds of that load.

So I'm trying some cooler loads today. I fouled the barrel with five of the hot loads and the velocities were in the mid 3800s. This is 100 fps lower than before. I guess due to the cooler weather. It is 70 degrees here today.

Next, I switched to 24.1 grains of n133 with the same 40 grain berger and a ccibr4 primer. The winds are switchy and 3-10 gusting to 18mph. Ya'll, I just shot a .192" group at 150 yards. This is on new brass.

I'm going to go try a few other loads I made up and I'll let you know what happens. If this is repeatable, I will take this load to the Benchrest club matches. The gun is too heavy to be legal but it would be a hoot just the same.