SmallCaliberCentral

BunGhoLeo wrote:Shouldn't the remington be under factory, and the cooper under custom?

Remington Custom Shop rifles are not the same as Remington Production rifle. So should I just lump the factory customs, Coopers, and the like into the custom class?


Here is a draft of the rules...

Rifles chambered in 204 Ruger only.

A pre determined sighter bull for unlimited sighters. 3 bulls with a 5 shot group in each bull for score.

Targets will be shot at 100 yards.

Factory Production / Factory Ammo class will be a production rifle that has not been rebarreled
or had the chamber recut. Trigger replacement and bedding of the stock are permitted. Any scope
magnification allowed. Only factory loaded ammo allowed.

Factory Production class will be a production rifle that has not been rebarreled or had the chamber
recut. Trigger replacement and bedding of the stock are permitted. Any scope magnification allowed.
Factory or handloaded ammo.

Factory Custom class will include Remington 40X, Coopers, Kimber... Any scope any ammo.

Custom class, any custom action rifle. Anything allowed.

You may shoot 1 rifle in each class.

Last but not least. Your targets will have a sticker with your name on it, these are numbered 1
through the number of targets you requested. If you requested 4 targets and only shoot 1 you must
submit target 1. All targets submitted after a skipped target will be thrown out.

Hopefully the rules will satisfy everyone and be simple enough.

would a aftermarket trigger put us in the factory custom. either way im in also

O.K. I'm in but, I would like a clarification on the rules. Are we shooting for groups or scores?

How do we keep everyone honest. It would be easy to hang a target at fifty yards and say it was a hundred.

How about tie breakers?

I'm in!

Factory/any.

PM on way.

Robert harrel wrote:would a aftermarket trigger put us in the factory custom. either way im in also

Trigger replacement is allowed in the "Factory Production" class.

skipper wrote:O.K. I'm in but, I would like a clarification on the rules. Are we shooting for groups or scores?

Yep, not very clear was I.

The winning target in each class will be the average of the three groups (group size).

How do we keep everyone honest. It would be easy to hang a target at fifty yards and say it was a hundred.

Best I can do is the honor system. Cheaters will only be cheating themselves. I'm hoping the lack of prize money will keep everyone honest.

How about tie breakers?

Working on that. Suggestions welcome!

WrzWaldo,I think this would be fun for all how want to try it out. I'm in factory gun and other ammo for me. When you get this all worked out let us know when to send you our address ok?

I think you should give everyone the same number of targets. That way no one has a better chance just because they have more tries. I would say that three score targets would be sufficient. Let everyone hang their own sighter targets which do not count. You (WrzWaldo) could hand number and sign each target. That way no one could slip in a ringer. If you send a person three targets they should send back three. Each target should have one shot off to the side so you could use that hole to decide the group size. The group size would be the outside to outside distance of the two farthest holes in the group minus the diameter of the hole off to the side. That would give you the group size. It would be pretty hard to have a tie if we're just using group size to determine the winner but you could also add in the placement of the group in the bullseye for a tie breaker. Smallest group and most centered in the bullseye for a tie breaker.

We would all have to be on the honor system to fire all five shots. Some of the groups could be pretty tough to tell if they were really five shots or not. Another option would be to have everyone get two witnesses, present during firing, to sign and date the targets. We would still have to be on the honor system but it might be better if someone actually witnessed our firings. We might even win some more .204 Ruger converts in the process. Pictures of you shooting at the range with your witnesses would be really good. Have one of the witnesses hold that day's newspaper in the picture for verification.

As far a classes of rifles goes, I think you should have only three.

Factory-Any rifle, mass produced and sold by retailers that has not been modified in any way.

Modified-Any rifle, mass produced and sold by retailers that has been modified, but retains the unmodified factory action, chamber and barrel. This class would include custom runs of factory rifles. (This class could include Cooper, Dakota, etc. Any rifle that uses custom actions or barrels not normally used in the production of factory rifles.)

Custom-Any rifle, not mass produced or the sum of individual parts. Also a factory rifle that has had the action, barrel or chamber modified from the original, factory configuration.

skipper wrote:I think you should give everyone the same number of targets. That way no one has a better chance just because they have more tries. I would say that three score targets would be sufficient.

I will issue the targets pre-labeled for the class to be shot. If a shooter wants to shoot factory and custom that shooter would get two targets, one labeled "Factory" and the other "Custom".

Let everyone hang their own sighter targets which do not count. You (WrzWaldo) could hand number and sign each target. That way no one could slip in a ringer. If you send a person three targets they should send back three.

I am designing and printing the targets. It will be pretty tough to slip in a ringer.

Each target should have one shot off to the side so you could use that hole to decide the group size.

In the spirit of keeping it simple I will use .204 across the board for group size calculation.

The group size would be the outside to outside distance of the two farthest holes in the group minus the diameter of the hole off to the side. That would give you the group size.

Correct. Final score per target would be (G1+G2+G3)/3

It would be pretty hard to have a tie if we're just using group size to determine the winner but you could also add in the placement of the group in the bullseye for a tie breaker. Smallest group and most centered in the bullseye for a tie breaker.

Perfect! Done.

We would all have to be on the honor system to fire all five shots. Some of the groups could be pretty tough to tell if they were really five shots or not. Another option would be to have everyone get two witnesses, present during firing, to sign and date the targets. We would still have to be on the honor system but it might be better if someone actually witnessed our firings. We might even win some more .204 Ruger converts in the process. Pictures of you shooting at the range with your witnesses would be really good. Have one of the witnesses hold that day's newspaper in the picture for verification.

I'm on the wall here. Thinking about it.

As far a classes of rifles goes, I think you should have only three.

Factory-Any rifle, mass produced and sold by retailers that has not been modified in any way.

Modified-Any rifle, mass produced and sold by retailers that has been modified, but retains the unmodified factory action, chamber and barrel. This class would include custom runs of factory rifles. (This class could include Cooper, Dakota, etc. Any rifle that uses custom actions or barrels not normally used in the production of factory rifles.)

Custom-Any rifle, not mass produced or the sum of individual parts. Also a factory rifle that has had the action, barrel or chamber modified from the original, factory configuration.

I want to give the non-reloaders a class to shoot in, unless we all decide to shoot the same factory ammo. I feel the fourth class will bring in some shooters that would not shoot because they would be shooting against handloads (I'd probably pass if I had to shoot factory ammo against handloads).

If you have comments on the rules get them in before Monday the 16th of July!

If you don't want to comment in the forum feel free to PM or email your comments to me. gro.odlawzrw@odlawzrw (yes, use a mirror to see it the right way)


When you send me your address please include a name that will get the targets to you.

I support the more simplified classes:

Factory

Modified

Custom

And leave the ammo issue out of it.....

JMHO,

George

I understand the think behind using witnesses, etc. to ensure honesty, but want to suggest that the bottom line is that either we're going to be truthful or not....and no amount of long distance "controls" are really effective. Over the years I've found that gun folks, and rifle folks in particular are some the finest, most decent men (and women) in the world. Let's just go with: trust and respect......JM $.02

George

Vartarg wrote:I support the more simplified classes:
Factory
Modified
Custom
And leave the ammo issue out of it.....
JMHO,
George

The thing is, the ammo will be the biggest handicap. Handloads in a factory rifle will shoot better then factory ammo in a custom rifle. Well, it should anyway.

I like the more simplified class's.

Factory gun / Factory ammo
Factory gun / Custom ammo

Custom gun / factory ammo <-not likely
Custom gun / custom ammo

BUT, in reality i think the odds of someone on here having a custom rifle and NOT reloading is perty slim, so we could do away with that class and just have three class's, would have to wait and see the entry's.

Vartarg wrote:I understand the think behind using witnesses, etc. to ensure honesty, but want to suggest that the bottom line is that either we're going to be truthful or not....and no amount of long distance "controls" are really effective. Over the years I've found that gun folks, and rifle folks in particular are some the finest, most decent men (and women) in the world. Let's just go with: trust and respect......JM $.02

George

Agreed...

Don't be a turd and cheat. Do you really want to be asscociated with a politicion?

Leo: Ha! Good one buddy. Here's something I saw on another forum that is worth repeating here in light of your post:

Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

PC'ness will be our eventual doom if we let it continue unabated as the liberals would have it.......