SmallCaliberCentral

I was looking on the net at some of the firearms web sights. I went to the Dakota arms sight and had a look around. I don't think I've ever read of anyone here having a Dakota 204. The prices were higher than Coopers. Are any better? I've seen them before, just not a lot of talk about them.

I think somebody posted theirs, or they posted something about them, but it was a loooong time ago. If I remember right, though, they shot itsy bitsy groups, I think around .25".

VA Varm: If you look at some of the back issues of Small Caliber News, there are a few articles on the Dakota Predator rifle in 20 Tactical and 204 Ruger. Very well made rifles, very high price. Many would argue, maybe rightfully so, that a Cooper or even a Kimber is a better or equal quality rifle, especially for the cash outlay.

No doubt about this though.....they really shoot!

Dakota is in and out of receivership a lot, I don't think I'd buy one, (if I could afford it ) because you never know if the company will be around from one year to the next. There is a long thread over on 24hourcampfire about this, just a couple of weeks ago, in the Gunwriter forum. It's probably back on page three by now.

Dakota, Nesika Bay, and a couple other companies were all bought by the same guy, who ran around and put them in bankruptcy in order to push out some of the board of directors and take complete control, according to the gist of that thread. Either way, it seems to be owned by an unsavory character, currently.

Glenn: Right you are, and his initials are "CK". I won't throw out any negatives here, but there is alot of not-so good comments about him on the net and in the industry, "greedy" being the primary comment. He is the reason we don't have Small Caliber News any more. I wish Todd Kindler would have never sold out to him and kept the magazine himself, which he started and did a fine job of being editor also for the ten year run he had prior to selling it to "CK"/Dakota Arms. SCN was by far the very best small caliber/precision shooting/varmint shooting magazine on the market, bar none. I'm hoping that another buyer resurrects it soon.

For those here that don't know of Todd Kindler, many feel he is the reason we now have the .204 Ruger, as he prompted the manufacturers for many years to bring out a commercial .20 caliber, and he also designed and promoted many sub-caliber wildcats over the years.

I just heard that Cooper recently sold. However, I do not know if this is merely hearsay or not. Has anyone heard this?

Yes, Cooper Arms sold to Wilson, no changes at the plant or products we're told. Wilson has been supplying barrels to Cooper for a very long time. There is discussion in another thread here on this subject.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthread ... w/1#UNREAD



Here's the thread I was referring to, it's on page ONE, of the gunwriter's forum. Steve Timm and John Barsness, and Dr. Ken Howell, are on that forum regularly, so I spend a lot of my time there. Those guys are fun to visit with, though Mr. Timm has some prejudices against anything smaller than .224", he's alright otherwise . Johnny B loves the .204, but he's so busy he just doesn't get over here, they keep him humping over on the Campfire, along with his other duties.
Dr. Howell is always around, spreading his wealth of knowledge and words. He's a hoot, big into word games and double entendres, I get a LOT of laughs out of his posts.

Thanks for the link...It was very interesting reading.

The Dakota's sure got purty wood......

Rick in Oregon wrote:SCN was by far the very best small caliber/precision shooting/varmint shooting magazine on the market, bar none. I'm hoping that another buyer resurrects it soon.

Rick, you've been officially nominated.

Since its public record…..Charlie Kokesh runs Dakota Arms...

Don Allen, a very well know individual custom gun builder of the 1970's founded Dakota Arms with the goal of building good quality semi-custom rifles, and he ran a very good business and turned out a good product. Unfortunately he passed away and his wife ran the business for awhile.

Along came Kokesh and a group of private investors who bought up the company and acquired the right to other things like Miller Arms (single shot actions) and Nesika Bay. Along the way they also got Todd Kindler on board long enough for him to turn over his involvement in SCN as it was getting to be a big venture for Todd and his wife to run. In a short period of time, the company ran into financial difficulties and filed for bankruptcy.

As part of the bankruptcy, the assets of the company were being sold in receivership in hopes that an investor could save the company and keep it going in South Dakota. Charlie was able to convince the judge involved, through his team of lawyers, that the original owners (his group) was the best bet to keep Dakota Arms afloat, and he bought the company back out of receivership for pennies on the dollar and shed the large portion of the debt they had acquired. That is the company which exists today that is also rumored to be in financial trouble once again.

Investors who had placed deposits with Dakota Arms for rifle orders were left in the lurch throughout this bankruptcy period and were unable to recoup their investments from the company.

If I was in Rapid City, SD at First Stop Guns and saw a Dakota rifle on the shelf that was built the way I wanted it and I liked it, and the price was decent, I would buy it without hesitation as they are still good quality firearms. However, I would be very hesitant to give them money up front and order a rifle with special options not normally found on their dealer shelves. Too many things have happened - and may happen again if the company is once again in hard times - to other investors who ordered a specially made rifle from Dakota before they received their rifle for me to gamble with my money.

Since the comparison of a Kimber being the equal of Cooper and now Dakota rifles keeps popping up here, I guess I’ll comment again as a current owner of both Kimbers and Coopers…

Dakota, like Cooper Arms, sells their rifles through their hand picked dealers and not through just anyone. First Stop Guns, which I mentioned earlier, is a first rate operation and just happens to be a stocking dealer for Dakota whose factory is only about 15 miles away in Sturgis, SD. They are also a stocking dealer for Cooper Arms, and their back counter racks are like a candy store when you see what they have to sell. They are far from your average gun store which peddles only factory rifles....including Kimbers. FS does sell factory rifles, but they are out on display on the open floor, generally arranged by calibers.

One thing that sets Dakota and Cooper apart from any mass produced gun builder is the fact that you can order rifles from each company and request numerous special options based on your individual wants. This runs the price up over their base line rifles which are what most people identify the companies as producing. They produce far more if you want to spend the money....

A company like Kimber of America, in comparison, turns out a high grade mass produced factor rifle that can be bought just about anywhere that wholesale distributors can sell them, including places like Gander Mountain. Because they are mass produced, the quality is not what you can expect from a semi-custom Cooper or Dakota Arms rifle. Both Cooper and Dakota (at least in the past) have excellent customer service if you happen to buy one that does not meet your desires, even if it’s a base line rifle bought off the shelf somewhere. Kimber is not that way from my experience as an owner. I also own several Coopers and I am a former Dakota owner...

I own/have owned several Kimber rifles over the years and they are nice factory rifles with extra nice wood in one case. Anyone can buy one just like the ones I or anyone else has. However, since they are mass produce rifles, you can't order special options that you may want. You get what the assembly line makes for everyone. Kimber does make "Special Editions" occasionally but they are just perhaps 500 serial numbers of rifles with a little engraving added and maybe better wood with a jacked up price. The rifle with Serial #1 looks just like Serial # 500. That is not a semi-custom or custom rifle...

If nice wood on a factory rifle makes them the equivalent of semi-custom rifles, one of the best pieces of wood I have ever bought was on a Remington 700 ADL in 7MM Mag that I bought back in the early 1980’s. It was far from a semi-custom rifle by design…

For loyal Kimber owners, I'm not saying they don't make good quality rifles. Heck, as I’ve stated, I own several of them myself... I also have sold several that would not shoot well and Kimber was satisfied with their performance and would do nothing with the rifles. They shot well enough to meet their mass produced factory requirements. Even Dakota Arms will not leave a rifle they have built that does not shoot well out in the public. They will make it right.

Cooper Arms, to keep their reputation for accuracy where it is in the public's mind, will let you shoot a rifle barrel to the point that it not longer meets their accuracy requirements and they will replace the barrel free of charge for the original owner - guaranteed and with no questions asked about how hot it got or anything of the sort. I have even heard of them doing that for second owners who bought a Cooper that was shot out. Try that with Kimber...

Someone who is very well-known in varmint hunting circles who posts frequently on various internet forums made a statement once concerning Kimber and Cooper rifles and if they are equals. He simply stated that anyone who thinks a mass produced Kimber is the equivalent of a Cooper has obviously never owned a Cooper... That statement has stuck with me, and that indeed has been my experience with the two makes of rifles, also. And also with the one Dakota rifle I once owned…

-BCB

[quote="Mike
Rick, you've been officially nominated. [/quote]

Mike: Remember.......re-ti-red? After talking with Todd about the headaches associated with running the magazine plus The Woodchuck Den, there's no way in this life I'd take that responsibility on now. I sure wish someone else would though, as I sure do miss SCN.


huntsman: Does that beautiful Dakota stock belong to you? Very, very nice.

Rick in Oregon wrote:Mike: Remember.......re-ti-red?

Re-ti-red is simply another word for "in between projects". I'll even help you out, Rick. I'll be the field editor. I'll send a PM, so you know where to forward my company credit card.

Oh boy Mike.....I'm all over it!

You're right though, "in between projects" hits the nail on the proverbial head. At the moment, processing some new Nosler 204 brass, and just finished up a new laser rangefinder monopod bench mount to avoid using my spotting scope tripod, which takes up too much room on the bench top and always seems to be in the way. Now all I need is for some decent weather, and have Skippy and his pals come up from their winter nap. It won't be too much longer now.........