SmallCaliberCentral

First post here; great forum. I shoot and reload a 6.5 Grendel, and would like to get into 20 caliber shooting....... both to shoot with my daughter, as well to go PD shooting in MT and WY. The guys I'd go with all shoot 17cal and think the one guy in the group who shoots a 204 is a bit loud and obnoxious. I think what I'd like to do is get a 204, then either rebarrel it or rechamber it into a 20VT. Can people give me some pointers on what 204 I should be looking at, or do I want to be looking for a different caliber? First I was thinking I could just get an old savage 204 and rebarrel it, thinking that would be the cheapest method. But I'm reading elsewhere that the bolt isn't exactly the same, and the extractor is different. Are all donor rifles for a 20VT based on the fireball case? Thanks!

The 204 and 20VT are ultimately based on the old 222 REM Mag as the parent case. So anything that chambers a round with the same bolt face; 223, 5.56, 17 REM, 221 Fireball can be a donor rifle. Most anything already chambered in 204 is going to be newer, and will likely not be inexpensive as a donor.

That said, is your Grendel an AR? If so, that is another option that you could also consider.

mpstan wrote:First post here; great forum. I shoot and reload a 6.5 Grendel, and would like to get into 20 caliber shooting....... both to shoot with my daughter, as well to go PD shooting in MT and WY. The guys I'd go with all shoot 17cal and think the one guy in the group who shoots a 204 is a bit loud and obnoxious. I think what I'd like to do is get a 204, then either rebarrel it or rechamber it into a 20VT. Can people give me some pointers on what 204 I should be looking at, or do I want to be looking for a different caliber? First I was thinking I could just get an old savage 204 and rebarrel it, thinking that would be the cheapest method. But I'm reading elsewhere that the bolt isn't exactly the same, and the extractor is different. Are all donor rifles for a 20VT based on the fireball case? Thanks!

AFAIK, no one makes a 20 VT as a repeater. Cooper offers them as single-shot models.

If you want a 20VT repeater the best thing to do IMO is find a Remington 700 in either a 17 Fireball or 221 Fireball or a CZ-527 in 221 Fireball.

WRT to the Remington 700 Fireball actions vs a 204/223 action is the following:
- The feed ramps are different and;
- The bolt face is different in that the ejector is located near the very top (12:00) position vs. down on the lower side (8:00) for the 223 & 204 models.

Will a 20 VT function in a STD 204/223 action? As a single shot it will chamber and go bang. As a repeater, it may not function properly. You can read online where some folks says it functions and others saying they had feeding and/or ejecting issues.

So the other donor rifle chambers would be 222 remington, 17 fireball?

I don't know much about bolts but some say non-221 fireball actions have a different bolt and different extractor; some people but maybe not all people have extracting and feeding issues if they don't start with a fireball donor rifle.

Would be nice to hear from folks that have gone the donor rifle route.

There aren't many, but there are a few nice Remington 17 Fireballs out there, might be a fun round to shoot for a while before doing a rebarrel.....

Yes I have the 6.5 Grendel AR but don't possess the kahunas to mess with it. I'm happy with the range of coverage I'll have with these two if I ever get to go PD hunting.

Thanks for your input; I appreciate it

Yikes, Jim, your post beat me to the punch!

Thank you for clarifying what I have heard. Funny Todd Kindler didn't mention any of these issues when I talked to him today. In your opinion would I be losing much accuracy if I were to start with a CZ? Trigger quality of CZ vs. Remington 700? I like the looks of the CZ and I don't think I mind the box magazine.

Thank you again!

None whatsoever. The CZ's are fine rifles & will serve you well. The American has an adjustable set trigger that goes down into the ounces.

Jim White wrote:WRT to the Remington 700 Fireball actions vs a 204/223 action is the following:
- The feed ramps are different and;
- The bolt face is different in that the ejector is located near the very top (12:00) position vs. down on the lower side (8:00) for the 223 & 204 models.

Will a 20 VT function in a STD 204/223 action? As a single shot it will chamber and go bang. As a repeater, it may not function properly. You can read online where some folks says it functions and others saying they had feeding and/or ejecting issues.

Good info to know. I know I hadn't picked that up yet.

mpstan wrote:Yes I have the 6.5 Grendel AR but don't possess the kahunas to mess with it. I'm happy with the range of coverage I'll have with these two if I ever get to go PD hunting.

The beauty of an AR is being able to have multiple uppers for one lower. Haven't seen a 20 VT AR yet, but there are gobs of them in 204. Pull your takedown pins, swap uppers, and swap your mag out and you have a totally different set of targets to pursue. Wouldn't likely cost you as much to build as well.

Or, go Savage. (I'am a Savage/Stevens fan, BIG TIME) Just about and .223 will do the job.
One in .204 will be more expensive. (New)
Savage/Stevens short action, used .204 barrel, set back by shortening the back end of the chamber to fit the 20 VT case with a few more threads added up front so you can set the headspace.
Feeding from a mag will probably be a problem.
Single feed, by pulling the ejector rod and spring.
Fired brass stays on the bolt head till you pick it off.
Add a Rifle Basix trigger or live with the Accu Trigger that can be lightened by swaping springs. (2 to 3 pound range)
Swap the plastic stocks with a Boyds, add glass and you're ready to go.

Just a sidenote on potential rifles for 20 VarTarg....

First off, it is NOT based on the 222 Rem Mag case as is the 204 Ruger, but on the 221 Fireball case (or 17FB). The VT does share the same .375" boltface as the 222 and 204, but that's all.

This is a small, petite round, like the 17 and 221 Fireball. As such, it is completely 'at home' is a nice, small, short action bolt gun like a CZ 527, Sako Vixen, Browning Micro, etc, or Contender, or falling block rifle like the No.1 or No.3, Browning Low Wall, etc. I consider even the M700 S/A the size limit for such a conversion. A Model Seven would be about right for a Remmy.

My point is, that why whould anyone want to chamber such a sweet little round in what I'd call a 'clunker' or huge-actioned rifle with full size features like a (can't believe I'm typing it) Savage. I know, I know, lots of guys actually like them, and that's their perogative, but just consider what vehicle will chamber your little 20VT prior to starting, or you may end up with a club chambered for a miniscule cartridge, that's just not 'at home' in such a beast of a rig.

If a repeater is wanted, then do your homework and try to find the appropriate donor rifle, ideally one that was chambered for one of the Fireballs....(NOT one chambered for 222 Rem) it'll make your life easier, and you'll end up with a sweetie, and not a clunker hog. To go to the expense of rebarreling/rechambering, dies,etc, it just doesn't make sense to use anything except the proper platform to start with. Subjective I know, but valid; take it for what it's worth......been there, sold it soon thereafter. Flame suit donned and zipped up, I've received incoming fire in the past....... JMO, JME

Hey I thought about converting a rifle or buying a Savage action, but when you start running the numbers and the wait times I came to the conclusion that for the same money (even less) I could buy a purpose built 20 VT from Cooper and have an accurate varmint rifle out of the box. If I already had a donor not in use, maybe its worth it, but to go out and buy a rifle just to modify sounds like alot of work. If you're set on doing it, I would get the CZ and re- barrel. Your problem is exactly what you said, you're gonna get a 17 Fireball, start shooting it and never do the 20 VT conversion! Come over to the dark side and just get a Cooper.

Rick,

What I was meaning in saying the 20 VT was based on the 222 is that the original 221 Fireball used the 222 as its parent case, just like every round that uses the same case can be tracked back to the 222.

Volstandigkeit wrote:Rick, What I was meaning in saying the 20 VT was based on the 222 is that the original 221 Fireball used the 222 as its parent case, just like every round that uses the same case can be tracked back to the 222.

Okay, correct, and I see the way you meant the reference now.

And running the numbers will indeed show what we're discussing. Just purchasing a Cooper up front makes alot of sense, unless you must have a repeater (and that will change with their M51 next year). This little number is getting so popular, it stands to reason that R-P should add it and have the Grand Slam of FB calibers...17, 20 and 22. What a stable, eh?

As for the 17FB, I've been shooting a Sako Vixen 17 Mach IV for over 15 years, and love it. BUT, adding the 20VT that uses common brass really is the cat's meow....even better field performance in all regards for the 20VT......every one. I've got all three (17,20 & 22), love 'em all, but the tip of the hat goes to the 20VT in every way. If I could only have one "Fireball", it would be the 20 cal version: 20 VarTarg.

(Another beauty of all three besides common brass, is that RL-7 works in every one! Nice.)

I can't add any more to the discussion about cartridges, but I'd like to hear a bit more about your intended shooting. If I was strictly punching paper and prairie poodles, a repeater would not be on my radar. A single-shot (like a Cooper ) will be a lot faster to work from a shooting table in hot prairie dog towns and the extra rigidity of a single-shot might help improve accuracy. You've got the AR for fast and furious action as well. Another point to consider is that, if you ever sell, you're likely to take a beating on a gun that you put together out of spare parts. Just my two cents and it's probably over-priced advice at that rate. Good luck in your quest.

Rick in Oregon wrote:I'd like to hear a bit more about your intended shooting.

Mike I don't think your advice is overpriced at all. Even if I paid you a beer for it!

Intended use for this rifle would be primarily paper punching or target shooting. My daughter of 13 has expressed interest in shooting for the first time so I'd like to get her involved with this rifle. She is a very small young lady so I am sensitive about recoil. Also there are a bunch of mostly old guys (I'm 54 and I'd be considered young) who do a "varmint match" and I would like to be able to compete with them. It's all 200 yd stuff and closer. Finally as I already stated I might like to take it PD hunting, and most of these guys shoot 17s.

I've never PD hunted before so I could use more insights on what people like. Seems a repeater would be advantageous but perhaps it in't. I can't afford to put more than $1000 into a project, so a Cooper 20vt is out. Making a 20 VT on the cheap seems like more of a pain in the neck the more I look into it, but maybe giving up on the repeater aspect might make it more doable with a wider range of donor calibers to select.

From a recoil standpoint I think I want at a minimum a 17FB, or maybe a 17 hornet. To reach out and touch a little further, I was thinking 20VT; I don't think I want a 204. Was also thinking about a 221FB; from what I'm reading the recoil is pretty light. .223 is more gun than I was thinking.

Last question: if I'm going to eventually rebarrel into a smaller 20VT like round, why would I not consider something with more plentiful and higher quality brass... like a 20 caliber based on the Rem 222 case ( 20-222, or 20 Dasher)? Too close to a Tac20 or 204?

Thanks again