SmallCaliberCentral

G’day,

I have a question on bullet stabilisation but I figure that as I am new to this electronic neighbourhood it is kind of rude to go straight into a question without introducing myself. Firstly I want to say that I have immensely enjoyed reading the contributions and touches of humour to what I consider to be a very supportive and informative forum.

My name is Derek and I come from Sydney, Australia. My introduction to shooting was on the property of a family friend when I was about 14 and with his armed services background he was pedantic about safe shooting and the lessons have stuck over the years. I have a mum cool enough who, after I turned 18 and was deemed responsible enough, got me my first rifle. It is a beautiful 22 long rifle Brno model 2E with deluxe walnut stock and I intend to keep it for life (and hopefully hand it down one day).

We owned a few larger calibres but due to changes in firearms legislation the 22s were the only rifles we kept. Ever since I used a friend’s 17 Remington to drop a couple of rabbits at what I considered then was a pretty reasonable range I have wanted a centrefire but couldn’t really justify it. Earlier this year with a redundancy payment in the pipeline I decided to make the jump. As my preference is shooting smaller game (especially rabbits) my initial calibre of choice was a 223. My long time friend and shooting buddy suggested I look at a 204. After a bit of research on opinions, ballistics and the comments of people on this forum I started to agree with him. Flat shooting like a 17 Remington without the fouling issues, longer barrel life and better post kick sight picture than some of the hot cartridges, accurate like a 222 but not gradually waning in popularity and similar knockdown energy (Hornady website) to a 223. The only issue I could see with it was the price of ammunition compared with a 223. Having said that, since (unfortunately) I don’t get the chance to do as much shooting as I would like to, the relative costs of ammunition is not a major issue.

While short listing new rifles I saw a barely used Remington 700 SPS Varmint with Bushnell 5-15x50 scope come up on a site and after talking to my shooting friend I bought it. It came with a few accessories and some handloaded ammunition. Rather than go to a shooting range I arranged to head up to my friend and the properties we have access to in his area. I know I should probably wash my mouth out but my first shooting experiences with the rifle were extremely disappointing to say the least. Using the handloaded ammunition I took a shot at a reasonably sized box at about 80 yards. Considering the previous owner said it was an extremely accurate rifle and that handloaded ammunition was far better than factory bought I was expecting to see the shot show up an inch or so from point of aim. I didn’t even hit the box. Took a few shots and gradually dialed it in to hit the box but there was very little consistency. The next day we went to a very wind sheltered valley on another property and we put the box out to about 140 yards. It was hitting it but from all I read I was expecting the shots to group in about an inch not three shots two to three inches apart. After my friend pointed out that there was no reason that the rifle shouldn’t be shooting well I grabbed the one pack of factory loaded Hornady V-max 32s I bought just in case and put some shots down the range. The next two shots were almost on top of each other and the 3rd was about an inch away. My friend then did three shots which were even closer together. Yep the rifle could shoot sub MOA. Later on we took apart a few of the handloaded rounds and for whatever reason the powder loads were all over the place. Since then I took the rifle to the range and my best group to date with factory loaded ammunition at 100 yards had four shots through a ragged hole with the fifth shot about ½ an inch away and I think I pulled that one slightly.

I am really loving what the rifle can do now and am looking forward to seeing what it can do to rabbits (unfortunately the property where we usually shoot them had grass so high we could have lost sheep in there). All of this leads into my question. I know the factory loaded 32 grain V-max shoot well but I have read that some 204s are a little fussy with heavier bullets. Ideally I want to switch to factory loaded 40 grain V-max (same price, almost exactly same trajectory but more knockdown energy left at other end than 32s) for all my shooting but how and at what distances do you start to see if they are not stabilising properly? The 40 grains group well at 100 yards and the longest kill shot over a recent shooting weekend with a 40 grain was about 300 yards (as per GPS).

BTW - seriously jealous of some of the beautiful shooting locations and amount of targets (read PD towns) you have over there in the States.

First welcome aboard Derek,, You will enjoy and gleen a lot of good info on this site, from the members that lurk and puruse this site. Sounds like you have a decent rifle, and if and when you can reload you should be able to obtain some fine accuracy. In the meantime shoot the bullet that works, seems like you prefer the 40 grain and not a think wrong with that. I personally prefer the 32 and 34 grain one's in my 204 and other 20 calibers. As for the sellers handloads, that just proves a point. Unless you really know the handloader never trust their loads. If you have found some vary that much in charges, I would just pull apart the others, use the brass and throw his powder away. The bullets you might be able to salvage and burn plinking around.. At least that is my thoughts. Again welcome. Bill K

Good advice from Bill. Especially the part about hand loads from unknown sources. If you really want to shoot 40 grain bullets, consider trying the 39 grain Sierra Blitz Kings. Most 1:12 twist factory barrels really seem to shine with them. Welcome aboard!

G'day Derek and welcome aboard.

If you're interested in factory ammo only, then just grab a few boxes and see how they shoot. I'm not sure what's available for you, but I started out with Federal factory ammo (the only available loads at my local - and very pricey at $2 a shot). They did a 32 Nosler, and 39 BK and the 39 worked slightly better for me. You should work out pretty quickly what your gun likes/dislikes.

If you are interested in reloading, you will find plenty of advice on here, and discover a plethora of reloading tools you never knew you needed
And you should certainly find your groups shrinking if you're doing it right.

I'd say grab a box each of factory gear, with both 40 Vmax and 39BK and see what works best, then start loading your own with the preferred pill. There's been plenty of discussion here regarding the 40 gn pill and stability issues. Seems a few of the CZ owners are seeing results with the 40's, but most factory 1/12 twist barrels don't like them. As RAMOS mentioned - you won't hear much negative feedback on the 39's.

Good luck mate. Keep us posted on your decisions and developments

Derek,

Hello from a fellow Sydneysider.

I've been shooting my Howa 1500 sporter barrel for around a year now and it seems to shoot better and better all the time. You can find some of my early results on a thread called "my walking varminter rig". basically I've had no issues with stabilization shooting 32gr right up to the 45gr Hornady SPs (which incidently shoot the best) out of the 1:12 twist barrel. I bought mine second hand also.

The last time I shot at a target, the rifle shot as good as 0.6" and no worse than 0.9" at around 90 meters with ANY load I tried. It was shooting at about 1.3" to 1.8" at 130 meters and I was having trouble seeing in the poor light, shooting off the floor with a Bipod and home made rear sandbag. I'm sure a better shooter could have done better from the bench.

I tried the following factory loads.

Winchester 34 gr HP
Winchester 32 gr BT
Remington 32 gr BT
Federal 39 gr
Hornady 40 gr V max
Hornady 45 gr SP

the rifle was more consistant with both Hornady loads but didn't seem to care what I fed it. Perhaps I have been lucky with my rifle and the only way you will know with your rifle is to buy some heavier factory loads. the 39-40 gr BT type projectiles offer the best ballistics.
If I understand correctly, those who report stabilization issues with 40 grainers notice keyholing and poor accuracy at the 100 yard target.

Another bit of advice; ditch the rest of the handloads the previous owner gave you. It may not be safe to shoot if he has not been careful with the powder charge.

Thanks for those responses especially the information about stabilisation at the 100 yard mark. Even though the rifle seemed to be shooting well at the 100 yard mark I wasn't sure if I would have to put targets out at 200 or 300 yard distances to find out about the stabilisation issues I kept reading about.

I have a plan for the previous owners handloaded bullets. Even though the powder weights were all over the place they were still within the recommended weights for the powders and there were no signs of over pressure. Rather than spend all the time taking them apart I am tempted just to use them up on a some larger reactive targets (water filled plastic bottles or similar) just for the fun of it. My shooting friend reloads so he will probably make up a new batch for the rifle with the used shells. Really looking forward to seeing what it will do with some consistent handloads and the new ADI 8208 powder we finally managed to get our hands on.

Apparently the Hornady 45gr SP actually stabilise more easily than the 40gr BT as they are a shorter round, I found that quite interesting.