Best Factory Ammo for Savage Model 12 VLP? Foxing.

[Griff]

Hellow all.

I have recently purchase a Savage Model 12 Varminter Low Profile chambered for the .204.

I am hoping that there are a few users of this rifle out there and my question is this:

Which is the best factory load for this particular rifle?

I am fox hunting in the South Western part of Australia and not concerned about pelt destruction. As ammunition is very expensive ($36 for 20 rounds - which equates to $32.70 USD). I would love some help from other shooters of this rifle. I know that hand loading is the way to go but I'm not set up for that as yet. The rifle has a 1 in 12 twist. I'm fairly new to this game so any help would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers from Down Under,

Griff.

[assailant]

hey griff,

im from gero wa and have a savage model 25. so far ive tried winchester 32gr and remington accutip 32gr both of which were extremely accurate.

i have some 39gr blitzkings but havent yet tried them, nor the 32gr hornadys.

i know what you mean about ammo prices.. the 39gr blitzkings are $2 a pop up here

[jo191145]

Welcome to the forum Griff

Bad news is you'll have to try em to really know. Factory tubes can be pretty fussy about the bullet weight.

Best quess would be either 32's by Hornady or Remington or the 39 Sierra by Federal.
Not sure whats available to you? Personally I'd try the 39 Feds first. Four savage barrels preferred those for me in factory ammo with 32's close behind. One tube liked the 32's best. One tube shot 40gn Hornady very well, four did not.

JMO
All my Savage barrels needed to be broke in. Copper fouling was severe in some cases. Once they've smoothed up they shoot almost like customs. With the $$$ your spending on ammo you'll want to make every shot count. Testing loads through a copper clad barrel will be pointless and frustrating. Stock up on "good" cleaning solvents.

Personally I no longer break in factory tubes the old fashioned way. Up here in the States we have a product called "Graphite Extreme"
Comes in a spray can with long slim tube. After cleaning the new barrel thoroughly I spray it down the bore liberally until it runs out the muzzle. Take care to not get it in the chamber and clean chamber with light amount of solvent prior to firing.
Lock-Ease is the original graphite some Benchresters use in light doses on a patch. It does not dry in the barrel though. Using it liberally in my fashion is not a great idea. I've done it but prefer the dry lubricant.
This particular colloidial graphite drys almost instantly inside the bore. It allows the first series of bullets fired to travel down the barrel with a hefty amount of friction reducing lubricant between them and the bore.
I'll take a new barrel prepped this way and fire twenty or so shots through it without cleaning. Break in is done at that point, clean it good. Of course I handload and components cost less.
It always amazes me how fast an unlapped factory barrel will smooth up if you can keep copper from sticking right off the bat.

[Griff]

Hey Assailant

Thanks for that feedback - anything helps. I notice that a lot of .204 users are shooting with the 39 or 40 grainers.

I haven't got any myself yet but will probably head straight for the Hornady V-Max 40grn. Let me know how yours go. What are you shooting up in Gero?

And jo191145 - great info. I guess I'm just going to have to suck it up and see then. Everything is pricey in Aus. when it comes to shooting - rifles, ammo, ranges - you name it. The good news is that the bloke I will be doing most of my shooting with is set up for hand loading and is looking into a .204 as well.

Barrel break in - now there is a whole other topic on its own. But just to illustrate, this is the confusion I'm dealing with. When I purchased the rifle I asked my dealer about barrel break in they suggested "not to worry too much" and that 3 shots and clean followed by another 3 and clean should be sufficient. Their point was that since the rifle manufacturers don't say anything about break in or suggest a break period then it isn't really a necessity. I thought this was sound and logical advice. Today I spoke to another dealer who said the opposite - the old 1 shot and clean five times followed by 2 shots and clean etc. etc. was his suggested method.

Anyway, I was interested to hear about your method. After spraying the barrel with Graphite Extreme, did you clean it out straight away or leave it for a "period". And I'm sorry but I don't really understand what you mean when you say -

"It allows the first series of bullets fired to travel down the barrel with a hefty amount of friction reducing lubricant between them and the bore." ... expecially the "reducing lubricant between them and the bore." bit. Can you clarify for me.

In the end though I doubt it will matter due to the fact that I'm sure I won't be able to get my hands on the stuff. So if this is the case I guess I should shoot and clean, shoot and clean, shoot and clean...

And if you don't mind - how much copper fouling can I expect from this caliber?

[jo191145]

"friction reducing lubricant"

Graphite is a lubricant. By coating the entire bore with a dry lubricant film the bullets slide through it easier. Works much like moly but different.
For one graphite can be easily cleaned out with solvent. Moly fired down a new rough bore will fill in the rough spots. Filling in the rough spots is the opposite of what your trying to do in break in. Copper acts like moly too, just no lubrication. Copper shreds off on the rough spots covering them up.

Now if you fire another bullet through that bore with copper covering the rough areas your essentially wearing the barrel where its smooth and not smoothing it where its rough

***The desired effect is to get those naked bullets to run over the rough spots without leaving copper behind.***
I've found if you can get that non coppering condition your tube will smooth up in 10-20 rds and your done. No cleaning between shots. No nasty ammonia solvents possibly etching your barrel

The old breakin method is to clean that copper out after every shot. I grew very tired of that method.

By the way. Savage does have a break in regimine on thier website. From thier homepage click on "Support" then click Faqs.

How much copper can you expect?
How should I say this? Expect a lot. Maybe you'll see very little.
Do you need to live with it? Absolutely not.
Be nice to your reloading friend. The easiest way to solve copper problems is to pick a powder that creates enough carbon in your barrel to act as a buffer between the bullet and steel. Winchester 748 seems to be one of my favorites for creating this "bore condition" in 204R.
Just enough carbon to coat the bore but not enough to constantly accumulate causing carbon problems. H-335 might be another.

I'll go 400+ rounds in one of my Savs using naked pills and 748 without cleaning. Brings me home some trophies doing this.
I force all my guns to shoot dirty. The key is simply finding the correct powder for caliber/load that will do it accurately.
Even my 6ppc runs dirty. Did'nt take long to figure out why Benchresters clean thier barrels so much. N-133 is the wrong powder for long term shooting, it needs to be cleaned frequently. Ramshot X-Terminator on the other hand burns just right in my ppc. More accurate than 133 too.

[Griff]

jo191145 - again, priceless information. Thanks. I just wish my local shop was as forthcoming with information.

Have you heard of or do you use Bore Tech Eliminator for cleaning? There is an interesting article on it which can be found
here at www.hss.net.au/boretech/aushoot2006.html . I might start a new post on it and see what the general consensus is on the product.

[jo191145]

Griff

I now use Patch-Out. Probably similar to Bore Tech in some ways. Theres no ammonia in it anyway.
I've heard good reviews on Bore Tech. Never tried it myself. Someday......
Another good ammonia free product is KG-12 or so I've heard. Havent tried that yet either. Someday.....

I have no phobias on ammonia. Used plenty of em in the past. Once I tried patch out I knew there was a better, safer, easier way to remove copper. The days of using strong ammonia based solvents are over.

[AussieDave]

I use the Remington 32's through my Savage VLP. Havent used the Federal 39s or hornady 40s yet (and I have a few boxes of both.....I had to rob a bank in order to buy them though!) as my experience with the 32s on foxes is all positive in both accuracy and stopping departments.
I have property in Gippsland with several foxes continually in residence. Originally I called them in with a whistle and stopped them with the shotgun but then a few wised up to the whistle and would hang around out of range. Now the range doesnt matter. The longest shot so far to take a fox was across a hillside approx 280m. I held about 5 inches over him and nailed him through the shoulders. That little 32 is a solid little sucker! (must admit though there was now wind on this occasion).
Would be great if the winchesters were accurate (havent tried them) as they are the cheapest here in Aus at about $24 a box.
When you do your different ammo test post the results.

[Griff]

...Small world - I'm from Traralgon...

I'll be putting a few rounds through during the Christmas break so hopfully I'll have some anecdotal evidence for you.

[FireBallGuy]

If it were me and foxes were on the menu, I would stick to 32 grain bullets. Foxes are much smaller than yotes' and require much less energy to kill them. The 32 should enter the critter.....EXPLODE and leave little to no hide damage. Just my 2 cents worth.

[AussieDave]

Hi Griff

certainly is a small world. The property I have is located near Foster and the Savage I bought was off a bloke who lived in Bairnsdale! - Gippsland the home of the Aussie 204!

FireBallGuy the 32s do enter the fox and explode internally .....most of the time. Depending on the angle (or maybe if they hit bone) I have had a couple leave a neat little entry hole and an exit that you could drive a small car though!

[Ifishsum]

My Savage 12FV (1:12, 26 inch) shoots the Hornady 40gr at least as well as the 32g, but both are very good (less than 1 MOA). Haven't shot factory ammo in a couple of years, but went through several hundred rounds before I started rolling my own. Now I shoot 40gr Vmax almost exclusively.

[Griff]

Just a quick update after my initial testing. My best groups have come from the Hornady 32g followed closely by the Federal 32g. My best group with the Hornady (without measuring) was just over .5 of an inch - and I do mean just over.

My worst groups came from the Winchester 32g.

As yet, I haven't really tested the heavier pills but when I do I will give a quick update.

Thanks for all your help!