UPDATED: Need Some Help.....Problem was 39 SBK's!!

[MuleyTime]

First a little history....I bought a new Savage .204 a month or so ago, and it was shooting very good groups with 25.2 grains of R10X and a 39 grain SBK. The groups were so good that I decided to build my dope off of the load. So, I went out a couple of days ago to shoot some distance and confirm the drop chart. My first setup was at 400 yards and sure enough I hit the first two shot right on with the number from my chart. But....after that I couldn't hit squat. Well I blamed it on the wind and went home. Knowing better, it started to get to me over the next couple of days, so today I decided to go shoot more 100 yard groups to see what it's doing. Well, it wasn't good. The first shot was dead on, the 2nd went to the right, and the 3rd even more so. This is very uncharacteristic of the rifle and I new something was up. The next few shots didn't even hit paper!!!

What would make this very good shooting rifle change so bad? I have cleaned the crap out of it after each time out. But maybe I didn't get it as clean as I thought... I really never get a clean patch even after I think it is clean. I also followed the break-in procedure very well.

I am suspecting fouling, and the barrel is currently getting a Sweet 7.62 treatment.....but should it be fouling so soon? I clean with Butch's Bore Shine and Sweet's after each time out to the range. This is my first .204 and I hope I don't have to clean it after every 10 or so shots.......That wouldn't be cool.

Any ideas or suggestions?

[acloco]

See my post on Savage Shooters for you.......

[jo191145]

I read the post on SS and I agree. You have a carbon ring in the throat. If you were using a different powder I would speculate a copper deposit but with 10X my bet is on carbon.

I had some interesting correspondence with a knowledgable shooter this summer. He was having no luck getting a custom 204 to shoot. He tried many bullet/powder combinations and nothing was working. Finally he got around to trying 10X and 39bk's. His barrel promptly developed a nasty carbon ring in the throat with "silver streaks" in it. He was using a borescope to see this.
Off the top of my head I cannot recall if he was tumbling or just horrible accuracy but we both surmised the silver streaks must be leaking bullet core. No other powder/bullet combo created this issue according to his borescope.

I've found pretty much the same using 10X. Very accurate out of a clean barrel then it begins to go south rather quickly. I wouild quess a little more stringent cleaning process is required for 10X. I personally just leave it be. Stuff burns like diesel fuel in my expierience.
I know others on this forum use it and have no complaints. They must be working the brush better than You and I

I also bought a used 6BR barrel that had 10X run through it. Before screwing it on an action I could see the first 25% of the barrel had black streaks on the lands just by eye. It took a whole heck of a lot of scrubbing to make them go away.
For me anyway its much easier just using a different powder. A little extra throat maintenence is still required from time to time no matter what you burn so keep that in mind.

[Gube]

Ran into the same problem (not quite as bad) with both of my 204's back in Nov of 07.
I burn mostly RL-10X and had a "carbon problem"
http://www.204ruger.com/forum/viewtopic ... 720#p33720

[MuleyTime]

I had a person on Savage Shooters tell me that he has seen this problem with both 4895 and Benchmark, so I will do some more testing before I switch powders

It likes the 39gr SBK and 25.2 grains of R10x soooo much. But then again, maybe my barrel was a little fouled when trying the other load combinations. I did get decent groups with Benchmark and 35gr Bergers....maybe I need to scrub and try that combo again.

[acloco]

ALL powders, when ignited, produce carbon fouling - one of the biproducts of incomplete combustion....unfortunate, but true.

[MuleyTime]

acloco - I read your reply post again on SS.....

I'm a little unclear why I should use something like Flitz along with TEC.....? Can you explain it to me a little better so my little head can grasp what the purpose is of the metal polisher?

Wouldn't I be ok to just to scrub out with TEC and then flush really good with Butch's Bore Shine?

Thanks!

[acloco]

NO CHEMICALS sold over the counter will remove the copper.

You have to, unfortunately, scrub the copper off of the stainless or chrome moly barrel without hurting the barrel.

I ONLY use JB bore paste in extreme conditions, as it will wear on the throat, etc. That is why I use a milder compound - the metal polish - either Flitz or Blue Magic.

You will NOT get all the copper out in 20 minutes. Set aside a couple hours for the cleaning.

[MuleyTime]

Oh, Ok....I think I got it now.....

So you are saying (which makes sense) that I should use the TEC for my carbon build up and Flitz for my copper and forget about my Butch's and Sweets, right?

[greystone]

I have an un-opened jug of 10X that I was going to try. After I bought it I heard it was a dirty powder so now after reading this I just just sit on this stuff for a while. I just cleaned the copper out of a 1970's vintage Rem 700 using Butches Bore Shine. It took a long time and a lot of patches before it finally came clean.

[Rick in Oregon]

Wow, I must be either cleaning properly, or just one lucky shooter, as I use RL10X in both my Sako M75 Varmint and my custom M700/Pac-Nor (both with SBK's), and in the rat fields I clean after every 30 to 50 shots. So far, both punch dinky little groups, splatter rats out to as far as I can shoot, and both barrels clean up very nicely using Shooters Choice mixed with Kroil (60/40), patches, then bronze brush, then patch clean and go to Barnes CR-10 for the copper with patches and nylon brush. I swab the bore with isoprol alcohol to neutralize the chemicals, then go back to shooting. No special treatment, no mystery, as I use the same technique in all my barrels.

No signs whatever of any "carbon ring" in either barrel, both clean right up without any fuss, and go back to shooting small groups or launching Skippy. All powder is somewhat dirty by nature, some a bit more than others, but I don't consider 10X any worse or better than all the other suitable powders for the 222 family of cases, nor have I experienced any of the symptoms described above.

When I do get either carbon or copper fouling that is stubborn to remove, a session with Holland's Witches Brew always does the trick, and does not harm the throat or lands at all.....very good stuff to be sure.

I know Skipper uses 10X in his sweet custom Panda too, and he's never had any complaints.....

[MuleyTime]

Greystone- I would definitely try the 10X. I am not convinced that it's the powder and I am still going to use it until I have proof other wise. I think you will like the groups you get with it..... I tried Benchmark as well in my earlier stages of load development, and my barrel was every bit as dirty.

I am actually leaning more towards the problem being my barrel. Maybe it's a little rough and just needs some shooting. I have never had a barrel that took so much effort to get a clean patch out the muzzle. But I have never owned a .204 either.....

[Gube]

I have not had a problem since I started including using "butches bore shine" along with
using "wipeout". I find wipeout is great for copper but can't quite do the job for removing carbon. So far RL-10X has been the most accurate with both the light and heavy bullets with benchmark being a close second.

[jo191145]

Actually Rick as I recall history Skipper began with 10X in his Panda but discontinued its use when he ran into a carbon ring problem. Still going by memory here but Skip was not using a brush on his new beauty when this occured. Thats his story to tell tho.
By the way your cleaning right Your exactly who I had in mind when I stated 10X gets used with no complaints. Your brew of SC and Kroil might help. I've tried that combo and it does work great.

I'm a little different. (every one tells me so) I refuse to clean my barrels frequently simply because I need them to shoot 80rds or so with no cleaning. Hence I abuse them a bit to find a load that can do it. Sometimes in the past I'd shoot 200-300-400 rds before a competition trying to tweak a load fully without cleaning then bring the gun fully fouled for another 80. I don't bother shooting that much anymore its just not worth it.
Maybe I'm nuts but it seems new barrels can not handle this abuse and old barrels can not also. There seems to be a mid spot that can. Maybe thats why I'm always screwin on new tubes.
I have no bore scope but I found on the few occasions I tried 10X it will not go the distance. I'm sure if I was to stick to a regular cleaning regime things might change. I could watch accuracy degrade from a decent load to shotgun patterns while not cleaning.

Are you using WS2 with your 10X loads? I wonder if that may help keep the fouling from sticking so much along with your cleaning regimen?
I was shooting WS2 coated 155gn Scenars and R-15 in a 308 Win. Had that baby shootin dots at 300yds and right in the middle of an egg shoot it went south. About 150rds down the tube without cleaning. The black gunk I scrubbed out of that tube was the nastiest goopiest thing I ever saw. I quess I learned a little from that episode.

10X can be used in any appropriate chambering. Just be aware that a little extra scrubbing will be required.
FWIW The last time I used H-4895 I had a heck of time getting it all out

acloco Have you tried Patch-Out with the accelerator? I have not found any copper clad barrel that product could not clean. Easily out cleans Sweets and CR-10.

[Bayou City Boy]

2 words for easier to clean barrels.... colloidal graphite...

-BCB